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JJ BTN play against one villain

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JJ BTN play against one villain - Sat Nov 30, 2013, 12:40 PM
(#1)
Max_Kane's Avatar
Since: Nov 2013
Posts: 48
Hail, everyone!

Please be nice to me, it's my first post here. I do appreciate constructive criticism and I do want to get better at the game. Anything you have to say, I'll listen.



In this hand, I had JJ in position against an UTG raiser. I know he probably held a strong hand, but mine weren't as bad either. I decided to 3-bet him and fold to a 4-bet.

He just called me. Flop cam AAT and he donkbet me for $0.35, which I thought was weird, cuz I was the last aggressor. To me, if he'd had AA he would've slowplayed it or at least check-raised my c-bet, so I went all in and got him to fold.

I thought that I could also get fold equity from hands like KK and QQ by representing an A and the only non-A hand that worried my was TT, although I think he would slowplay this hand too.

So, I had a lot of fold equity and the villain's play didn't really make much sense. I know it worked out well for me, but it isn't important. What do you guys think of my thought process and my play?

Thanks a lot!!!
 
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Sat Nov 30, 2013, 03:36 PM
(#2)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
To be fair there's not much wrong I can find with what you posted - your thought process seemed very good on all streets, you were ranging the villain and you acted accordingly.

You'll be out of 2NL soon I'm sure!
 
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Sat Nov 30, 2013, 04:30 PM
(#3)
Max_Kane's Avatar
Since: Nov 2013
Posts: 48
Thanks for the feedback and the incentive, man. I hope you're right

Take it EZ!
 
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Sat Nov 30, 2013, 07:11 PM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Pre-flop, I think you should be flat-calling 100% of the time.

"I decided to 3-bet him and fold to a 4-bet."
This is flawed thinking, imo, as it's essentially "raising for information", when that information isn't very useful, and basically turns your hand into a bluff.

If you're raising, then it's either for value (can get called by worse) or as a bluff (will fold out better). But raising vs UTG, your raise will fold out worse hands (so you don't get value), and only get action from better ones. Since JJ has value (it's ahead of AQ+, TT) but can't often get called by worse when you raise, the best plan is to call and see a flop. If you really want to 3-bet vs UTG, do it with something much lighter, like 76s or A5s. Don't turn "value hands" like JJ into bluffs, imo.

As played, you continued with a bluff on the flop. and probably got villain off KK-JJ. This is a high variance manouvre, as he sometimes has TT and donked the flop to get stacks in vs AK (a likely holding for you). I'd recommend a more straightforward line at 2NL. Call pre, and then possibly call on the flop, but fold to a second barrel.


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Sat Nov 30, 2013, 07:14 PM
(#5)
kalahwang's Avatar
Since: Nov 2013
Posts: 135
on a very dry board, it's like playing way ahead way behind.

and if you're on a WA/WB situation you usually go for pot control. If he has an A you're owned. If he has a T you can let him bet. No need for protection and no need to bloat the pot.

He could also have a smaller pocket pair, a Q or K draw which you could earn from if you just let him bet.
 
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Sat Nov 30, 2013, 07:48 PM
(#6)
Danutz75's Avatar
Since: Oct 2013
Posts: 273
In my eyes you played this pretty well.

At this level, (and when I say that I mean no disrespect to the OP), players will 3 bet, 4 bet , 5 bet with all sorts of total rubbish. Unless you know for 100% it is a solid reg which you have loads of history with your line is correct.

My only advice here would be do not think too hard and over-analyse every hand. If you think you are ahead, get it in , plenty of players will call you with lots of weaker hands here.

Oh and for what it is worth I have to strongly disagree with artysmokes, the likely hood of getting a player at these stakes off KK/QQ/JJ is maybe 1 in 10 at best, on an ace paired board.

Last edited by Danutz75; Sat Nov 30, 2013 at 07:58 PM..
 
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Sun Dec 01, 2013, 11:37 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi Max,

Thanks for posting in HA! Preflop I think either flatting or 3-betting is ok... generally I am flatting here vs. an unknown who opens from UTG, as I already expect their range to be tight, and 3-betting will generally serve to fold out the bottom parts of their range (that JJ crushes) while only getting action from the top parts (that JJ doesn't play all that well against). That being said, in 2NL I don't expect most randoms to be folding to a 3B with any hand they deem strong enough to open from UTG, so my best guess is we will not fold out the worse hands too often. I agree with Arty, that 3-betting planning to fold to a 4-bet with JJ is not a good strategy, JJ has way too much post flop value for this, so if we feel we will have to fold to a 4b then I strongly prefer flatting, keeping the depth of money (SPR) bigger and utilizing my positional advantage to make better post flop decisions.

On the flop, I don't really like the shove. Villains donk line seems odd for trip aces or tens full, I agree with that... I too would expect him to slow play the flop or check/raise with those holdings. So while I think we often have the best hand here, shoving doesn't seem like it can get called much, our who play screams AK. Even vs. the poor hand readers in 2NL I'm not optimistic this is the best way to maximize our value. I think generally it's better to call (which is how we would probably actually play AK or TT in this spot) and give him a chance to put more bad action in later.


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Last edited by TheLangolier; Sun Dec 01, 2013 at 11:40 PM..
 
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Sun Dec 01, 2013, 11:39 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danutz75 View Post
the likely hood of getting a player at these stakes off KK/QQ/JJ is maybe 1 in 10 at best, on an ace paired board.
If this is true, then the flop shove is really bad, as it would almost never get a better hand to fold, and at the same time doesn't have a great shot of getting called by worse hands on this board.

While I don't think shoving is too good to begin with, one of it's target benefits in this precise type of spot should be getting KK/QQ to fold.


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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 03:25 AM
(#9)
Danutz75's Avatar
Since: Oct 2013
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
If this is true, then the flop shove is really bad, as it would almost never get a better hand to fold, and at the same time doesn't have a great shot of getting called by worse hands on this board.

While I don't think shoving is too good to begin with, one of it's target benefits in this precise type of spot should be getting KK/QQ to fold.

Loads of worse hands will call you at these stakes on this board, never ceases to amaze me the number of times you will get a call here from players on gutshots, let alone any pocket pair.
 
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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 10:53 AM
(#10)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danutz75 View Post
Loads of worse hands will call you at these stakes on this board, never ceases to amaze me the number of times you will get a call here from players on gutshots, let alone any pocket pair.
Well then, sick fold by V6.

I will not encourage hero to make value-owning shoves. You say "at these stakes" like everyone is a crazy loose monkey with no fold button, but that's simply not true. If we had a read that this villain was such a player, then shoving the flop can be fine, but vs. most player types this is a really bad board to expect light calls for stacks on the flop. His donking range is basically comprised of 3 types of hand strengths:

Ax+ - never folding and always stacking us
Bluffs - always folding to our shove
marginal hands (1 pair/gut shot) - we disagree on this one obviously, most player types are folding to a shove with these except the crazy loose monkeys types imo.

Given this, flatting seems >> shoving to me as we may lose less vs. Ax+, have a chance to win more vs. bluffs, and increase our earn from marginal hands. Even against the crazy loose monkey type, if he's willing to call off his stack to a flop shove with 33, I think it's safe to say he's willing to barrel off his stack when we flat call as well, so we aren't at much risk of losing value from this player type by not shoving either.


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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 05:44 PM
(#11)
Max_Kane's Avatar
Since: Nov 2013
Posts: 48
Guys, I would like to thank you all for the feedback.

I have been studying Poker for only a few weeks, and for me it's still very hard to go through all of this reasoning you guys so automatically do. I do believe I have the capacity to reach this level of play eventually, but I realize it'll take a lot of work. Although I understand now that what I did was wrong, as I was making this play all I could think about was: He's GOTTA BE bluffing, but he could be bluffing with some outs in this spot, so I'd better get rid of his equity with hands like KQ, KJ (which people at these stakes normally play regardless of position), and avoid getting out-drawn. I was pretty certain he didn't have a hand, but I also didn't think there was much value to be extracted from weaker hands cuz all the cards on the board were scarecards to any non-ace hand, making a call highly unlikely the way I was thinking it.

What's wrong in my thought process?

I'll try to think about what you guys have commented and try to let it set in.

Take it EZ!
 
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Tue Dec 03, 2013, 02:16 AM
(#12)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
Hi Max-Kane,

Quote:
He's GOTTA BE bluffing, but he could be bluffing with some outs in this spot, so I'd better get rid of his equity with hands like KQ, KJ (which people at these stakes normally play regardless of position), and avoid getting out-drawn.
I see two things wrong with this statement:

- You can never be 100% sure he is or not bluffing, that he has KJ or KQ, or that he will always slowplay trips, and this is why we range.
So for example do a list of all the hands he can have when he donks the flop, then ask yourself how many worst hands can call? and decide the best move to extract value from those worst hands.

- Fear of getting outdrawn by a marginal hand and wanting to fold villains little equity.
Lets say you have quads, and turn puts one out to a possible straight-flush, are you going to overbet the pot to fold his equity and not risk getting outdrawn by one out the little time he has that draw?

So if you flop top set and there is a flush draw, you want to be thinking how much can I bet and get payed without giving him good odds to draw?. You want to win as much possible with your set, not just win the hand.

Sometimes you are going to get suck out, sometimes you will suck out too.

If you try to answer those two questions in bold before every decision you are going to improve a lot.
 
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Tue Dec 03, 2013, 04:19 AM
(#13)
Max_Kane's Avatar
Since: Nov 2013
Posts: 48
Thanks, Carlos!

I understand now. All my thought process was based on THE CURRENT HAND, while I should be thinking long-term. Both your questions make perfect sense and they bring out the flaws in my reasoning. I shouldn't consider the current hand, I should consider all possible hands he could have and the best decision against those instead of what he has now. I get it now. It'll be hard, but I'll get there, although due to the fact that I'm a synesthetic learner, I'm probably going to need some coaching. Nonetheless, you have given me food for thought and I appreciate it. I'll write this down and use these questions in all the hands I play from now on.

However, one thing worries me: how do I answer the first question? I guess it takes experience more than anything, and I do tend to take notes on opponents (until I get my Poker Tracker): whether they're loose or tight, aggressive or passive and their (sometimes weird) tendencies such as limp-reraising, defending blinds, limp-calling a raise, etc. But I have trouble USING that information to range my opponent. In other words: I ask myself: "what hands could he be calling with?" and I draw a blank...

This is probably due to the lack of experience I have, but I was wondering if there's a "trick" to do that effectively. Is there a procedure you go through to range your opponent, or is it just an educated guess that requires hours and hours of playing at the tables?

Regardless, thanks for the input!

Take it EZ!
 
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Tue Dec 03, 2013, 07:42 AM
(#14)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
One 'trick' that gets repeated is to make ranging outside the tables when going over your hand histories.
 
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Tue Dec 03, 2013, 08:20 AM
(#15)
Max_Kane's Avatar
Since: Nov 2013
Posts: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveslice View Post
One 'trick' that gets repeated is to make ranging outside the tables when going over your hand histories.
Thanks for your reply, braveslice. That which you are saying is true, but doesn't exactly answer my question. Professionally, I teach English and Spanish, and only now have I started delving deeper into Poker, so I am aware of the length of the road ahead of me. I also have some pedagogical knowledge, which I never thought would come to be useful at a poker topic, but I guess we never know, hehe. Here's what I mean: What you are referring to is the PRACTICE of ranging, which is excellent to PERFECT an already acquired skill or at least one that the subject has already come in contact with, but doesn't help the subject acquire it in the first place. For that, there is need for PRESENTATION (the 3Ps of Pedagogy: Presentation, Practice and Production, in that order), which is a basic logical explanation of the topic at hand. So, in summary, what I am requesting here is something more basic, something to START understanding the concept of ranging so that I can then practice it and only then apply it accordingly.

I have posted a topic in the Poker Education forum where I elaborate a bit more on my "needs" in this case. Could you take a look at it and maybe point me in the right direction? Here's the link:

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...236#post466236

Thanks in advance!

P.S.: To the PSO staff, I would like to volunteer some of my pedagogical expertise in case you want to review the PSO material from a more theoretical point of view.

Take it EZ!
 

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