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5NL Zoom, KK, Villain push and taunts on the river to call

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5NL Zoom, KK, Villain push and taunts on the river to call - Sat Nov 30, 2013, 06:59 PM
(#1)
kalahwang's Avatar
Since: Nov 2013
Posts: 135


- No history with villain
- No hud
- villain taunting me to call on the river

Preflop:
- Open UTG w/ villain flat call

Flop:
- villain donks, just called on a wet board

Turn:
- standard bet for protection

River
- got raised all in.

Question:
- should I have reraised on the flop?
- I can't put him on a range on the river to push with a hand he donks on the flop since no draw completes-only a 4 which turned to a set on the turn. Is a call possible?
- what does taunting me to call on the river possibly mean? A bluff probably?

Last edited by kalahwang; Sun Dec 01, 2013 at 01:05 AM..
 
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Sat Nov 30, 2013, 10:27 PM
(#2)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
It's hard to reraise preflop when the villain flats.

Players commonly donk draws (albeit straight or flush draws) so when he check/raises the river he can definitely have some straights in his range.

Therefore you should be raising his donk bet otf.

I think it's a pretty clear bet/fold for value on the river.

When players chat they are usually pretty strong.

Last edited by birdayy; Sun Dec 01, 2013 at 12:39 AM..
 
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Sun Dec 01, 2013, 12:18 AM
(#3)
lycowolf's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 20
Of course you meant raise his donk bet on the flop, not reraising preflop. Also a set is usually defined by having a pair in your hand and the third one on the board, if he had 64 and hit a third 4 its usually called trips.

I hate hands like this against an unknown player. A few hands later you might realize that he was a MANIAC,
and you regret folding. Or 50 hands after you call and lose to his Quad 4s, you realize he is the nittiest player you have ever seen.

On a flop this wet with straight and flush draws, I think you were right in thinking that you should have reraised his donk bet. Most donk betting against one other player, is usually a bluff, semibluff, weak top pair or bottom pair. Raising him would be a good way to get value out of his top pair weak kicker and his draws. Calling on the flop was ok, but your overpair almost never improves in a way that makes you totally happy.
If he had a 4 and made trips on the turn, his check call makes some sense, but he should have bet again because you could have a draw that could beat him. So I think your value bet on the turn was correct. The river J is interesting. It makes hands like 87 and KcQc straights. It also makes JT into top two pair and JJ into a fullhouse. He could have any of these hands. Of course, Check raise shoves on the river are usually VALUE BETS by hands that think they are best, ALMOST NEVER BLUFFS, when you look committed to the pot.
The hands that you beat are JT, J9, T9, the hands that beat you are JJ, KcQc, 87, 54, 64, TT, 99. Most players wouldn't have donk bet TT or 99. Your bet on the river was fine, but I try to decide before I bet the river with just an over pair, whether I am in a bet/fold situation. If I think I have to fold to a 3bet or a check/raise, I check/call or check behind or I size my bet so that I can fold. Your $1.50 into a $2.12 was too large for a bet/fold given the pot size and the effective stack sizes. $1.00 would have been fine, worse hands could call, and you could fold easier. As you played it, you folded to a raise where you had to call for 1/3 of the pot, $2.45. To fold there, you had to be really sure he had you beat, but he might have thought JT, J9, T9 were best. So your fold was pretty close, as you should win about 25% of the time, IF only half the times that he has JT, J9, T9,he check/shoves the river.

Tough spot
 
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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 12:07 AM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,513
(Head Trainer)
Hi kalahwang,

I think calling the flop to re-evaluate is fine. We have a high stack to pot ratio and an unknown villain donking for a sizable bet on a wet board... while we are often ahead at this point imo, we can't be sure and raising bloats the pot to a point where we may need to commit and go with the hand, but when the villain does stack off we are probably actually not in great shape vs that stack off range. We're crushing JJ and QQ but behind sets, AA, and there are a lot of draws with big equity. I'm not opposed to raising, but if we get reraised I'm not happy about the spot and think we end up playing for 100bb's in a pretty marginal spot.

Part of what I like about calling the flop is that we can make a more informed decision on the turn and we are using our position to exercise control about when we put more $ in the pot... as is here on the turn, when he checks to us we can feel comfortable about betting for value.

On the river, I honestly think this is a classic bet/fold spot. We can get called down by plenty of worse hands, but when we get check-raised all in our hand should basically never be good. It's a super strong value line and I would expect to see at least a straight here. KcQc, 78s both make sense for how this hand has played out, as do TT/99/44 and even JJ. And we beat nothing but a bluff, but I can't see any bluffs in his river check/raise shoving range.

Regarding taunting, pretty sure it was to get you to call. You probably time banked, so he knew you had an overpair and were considering folding it, thus an attempt to talk you out of finding that fold. When you're thinking, if it appears you're leaning towards doing what the villain doesn't want you to do, they sometimes try to talk you out of it.


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Wed Dec 04, 2013, 04:16 AM
(#5)
kalahwang's Avatar
Since: Nov 2013
Posts: 135
thanks for the input from everyone. happy it seems I made the right play.
 
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Wed Dec 04, 2013, 08:32 AM
(#6)
Phrumpleton's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 4
VS esp unknown players I first recommend 3 betting the donk bet on the flop as you wish to see where you are, there are a lot of turn scare cards etc. Rarely vs even known players I would flat there as you want to the aggressor in a hand as you get a better idea where you are at. But I will just look at how you played the hand.

Turn: Here you gain the most information on the hand as he check calls, giving up his lead. This tells us he has a marginal pair, or he has a draw.

River: I understand you want to go for value here, but if you bet so much here and then decide to fold to a shove here, I do not like this sizing. Before betting on the river and even turn, you need to consider stack depths. e.g. in this hand you are betting 1.50 into a 2.12 pot and fold to a 3.95 check shove. Here you are getting 24.5% to call (price to call/(price to call + pot)).
Now looking at the fold on the river, what hands are we beating?
Obv it is hard to do quick while playing, but list the hand combinations he can have and their number of possibilities.
87 - 16 J9 - 9 JT - 9 QJ - 12 KJ - 6 KQ - 8 (note J8 - 12 is not included)
Without considering bluffing, we have the best hand 36/60 (60%) of the time.
Vs an unknown player I find it hard to factor in which draws he has so many players play them so differently. Worth noting that I would except players with draws would double barrel on turn to get smaller pairs and AK/AQ etc to fold as that is what your hand looked like (or draw) when you just called the donk bet on the flop.
 
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Wed Dec 04, 2013, 09:53 AM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,513
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrumpleton View Post
Now looking at the fold on the river, what hands are we beating?
Obv it is hard to do quick while playing, but list the hand combinations he can have and their number of possibilities.
87 - 16 J9 - 9 JT - 9 QJ - 12 KJ - 6 KQ - 8 (note J8 - 12 is not included)
Without considering bluffing, we have the best hand 36/60 (60%) of the time.
Except that you're counting all the counterfeit 2 pair combos that would not check/shove the river, they would generally either bet or check/call. And counting when he was on a draw that pairs the jack on the end, also not check/shoving. Unless the villain is a huge fish, but they are unknown.

All these combos may be fair on the turn, which is why we should bet for value as all these 2 pairs/Jx combos are likely to pay us off and we expect to have the best hand (and get paid) more often than not at the point we bet... but his check/shoving range should have us crushed, this action changes his range considerably.


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Wed Dec 04, 2013, 04:22 PM
(#8)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi kalahwang,

On the river, I honestly think this is a classic bet/fold spot. We can get called down by plenty of worse hands,
I don’t get these (ever – thick head it seems)
He would be calling us with the hand we beat {AT,JJ,QQ)
 

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