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Zoom, calling a 3bet shove from short & midstackers

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Zoom, calling a 3bet shove from short & midstackers - Sun Dec 01, 2013, 10:35 AM
(#1)
MintDeal's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 14
In this hand I decided to call and setmine because V6 was a reg who folded a lot to 3bets PF but didn't like to fold on later streets.

And then I got a shove from midstack regular who is aggro PF and is capable of doing it light.

Regardless of result, was this a good call and what should be a minimum hand strenght to make this kind of call against a shortstacker or someone with full stack without a strong read.

Maybe it's possible to get a live training session about playing against shortstackers as this was basically a tilt call because of them.


Last edited by MintDeal; Sun Dec 01, 2013 at 10:51 AM..
 
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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 12:19 AM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Hi Mint,

I would generally just fold vs. a 64bb shove here, but I think it's pretty close with TT. If you think he's shoving wide then calling off is fine. For this price our break even point is 46.8% equity.

If he's shoving a range of 99+, AJs+, AQo+, then our equity with TT is just under 45%. Here's some other hands and their equity vs. that range:

JJ: 50.6%
QQ: 58.6%
AKo: 49.8%
AQs: 40.7%
99: 38.4%

This should give you some idea. The wider they are shoving, the wider we can call off but generally it's ok to call off a bit tighter than you might otherwise think vs. these guys.


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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 05:59 AM
(#3)
MintDeal's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 14
Thank You Dave,

I usually fold here also and call QQ+ and thought myself that this call was horrific. Now looking back, I should have 3bet pre, having a squeeze happy medium stack behind me. And then already 5bet shove against his almost 10% 4bet range with less than 50% premium on SD over 2K hands.

Now I can hope that maybe as 4tabling regular, he has a note on me, that I'm able to call off his shove light and will tighten up his range. As I have note on him, that I did it and next time I won't do it so weak. Or maybe it's too much to hope from 10NL.
 
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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 09:59 AM
(#4)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
I would rarely fold here with TT. I've seen them showup with enough junk that I believe you'll be +EV to call.

It's also very rarely KK or AA.
 
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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 10:40 AM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
It's also very rarely KK or AA.
I'm actually seeing this player type take the overbet shove line with their AA/KK hands all the time. No it doesn't make sense, but they do it often enough that I can't agree with this statement.


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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 11:39 AM
(#6)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
^^ Just from my experiences Dave.
 
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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 12:16 PM
(#7)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
I don't always agree with birdayy, but this one I do
By just calling a raise, it looks like we want to see a flop, so the small blind shoves to scare us away.
1) I often see the small blind do this
2) If he did have AA, KK or even QQ, for value betting, he would 3Bet to about $1. Shoving will only get him $0.60 if they all fold, not really good value for those cards.
3) So often a player will shove AK, AQ thinking they can have us fold with 50% winner
4) any pocket pairs will beat AK, AQ in % pre flop

Maybe at higher stakes, you see these less often (but they do exist), so I'll be calling every time.

PS. Good call Mint
 
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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 02:47 PM
(#8)
flight2night's Avatar
Since: Jun 2013
Posts: 59
sorry dave with sand on this 1 n call mint
 
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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 03:03 PM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Don't be sorry... even I said it's close and I've assigned a much tighter range than birdayy or sandtrap. If you think the villain is shoving a bunch of junk, and not shoving QQ-AA, then of course you should (fist pump) call. I've no disagreement with that, I'm simply not tracking with the ranging.


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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 03:30 PM
(#10)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Hey Dave,

Few little question
If you were in the SB position with AA or KK, wouldn't you play it for value? I don't think you would shove. So, how do YOU determine a range of a player? What would be some of your criteria in this case with no info? (stack size? position? regular player? etc)
Would you of 3Bet with TT?

Thanks
 
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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 03:40 PM
(#11)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
Hey Dave,

Few little question
If you were in the SB position with AA or KK, wouldn't you play it for value? I don't think you would shove. So, how do YOU determine a range of a player? What would be some of your criteria in this case with no info? (stack size? position? regular player? etc)
Would you of 3Bet with TT?

Thanks
No, I think jamming with AA/KK is not optimal, but I wouldn't be playing a 64bb stack either so I expect such a player to probably be doing sub-optimal things:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
I'm actually seeing this player type take the overbet shove line with their AA/KK hands all the time. No it doesn't make sense, but they do it often enough that I can't agree with this statement.
Regarding 3-betting TT, obviously it's situational... here vs this opener as described I think flatting with TT in position is the clear best play.


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Mon Dec 02, 2013, 07:32 PM
(#12)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
I'm actually seeing this player type take the overbet shove line with their AA/KK hands all the time. No it doesn't make sense, but they do it often enough that I can't agree with this statement.
At my experiences at 10NL - the few times you get to see what these 50BB all-in junkies have, it is normally the lower end of what might be called "premium" e.g. 99-QQ, AJs-AK. However there is a fair bit of complete junk and a significant number of AA and KK also that I have seen.

I always take a note when I see someone 3Bet shove - if they are doing this regularly then it is probably fair to assume that they are not doing it with AA or KK all the time.
 

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