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Hot $3.30: Preflop play w/ AA

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Hot $3.30: Preflop play w/ AA - Thu Dec 05, 2013, 07:39 AM
(#1)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Just wondering what arguments there are for/against 3b isolating vs flatting the UTG shove.

Player1 ( 1678 ) - VPIP: 14, PFR: 14, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 14
Player2 ( 5064 ) - VPIP: 27, PFR: 18, 3B: 17, AF: 0.0, Hands: 11
Player3 ( 7648 ) - VPIP: 20, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0.3, Hands: 15
Hero ( 14475 )
Player5 ( 2805 ) - VPIP: 33, PFR: 33, 3B: 50, AF: 0.0, Hands: 3
Player6 ( 13915 ) - VPIP: 33, PFR: 27, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 15
Player7 ( 2480 ) - VPIP: 21, PFR: 7, 3B: 13, AF: 0.0, Hands: 14
Player8 ( 8190 ) - VPIP: 14, PFR: 14, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 7
Player9 ( 15880 ) - VPIP: 21, PFR: 7, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 14

 
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Thu Dec 05, 2013, 07:50 AM
(#2)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
I personally like the flat call - I don't mind seeing a flop or getting it all in 3 or 4 way.
 
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Thu Dec 05, 2013, 12:39 PM
(#3)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
For calling, I think balancing it for the times you call with a not so great hand like AQ/medium pair.
And you have a monster equity hand with a lot of BBs, which would probably made reraising look a lot stronger than calling (to the average player at least).
For 3betting, I guess not letting villains, who have the same number or more BB's than you, hit 2pair+ postflop and get paid a considerable amount of chips from you (if not all your stack).
You can go either way in my opinion, but since it's a rather tightish table, probably 3betting would make more sense.

Last edited by GamblingProp; Thu Dec 05, 2013 at 12:44 PM..
 
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Thu Dec 05, 2013, 12:49 PM
(#4)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Flatting in this case is just terrible
You are giving the opportunity for others to join in and giving your AA less odd's of winning. You're suppose to isolate a player.

This should of been an all-in
 
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Thu Dec 05, 2013, 03:10 PM
(#5)
EmotiveKiwi's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 140
Because the inital shove is so small realtive to our stack I would actually want action from the other stacks behind us so I would flat call also.
 
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Thu Dec 05, 2013, 07:03 PM
(#6)
bungakat's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 41
flatting/isolating with small raise, both fine, just dont shove this, it will look way too strong and villians behind might not come along as wide as flatting/iso raise. Personally i would have minraise it or something like that, so if someone even does call there is sidepot to play for.
 
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Thu Dec 05, 2013, 11:46 PM
(#7)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
Hello,
I may call buttons raise or shove with qq+ from sb, but never slow play monster from MP.
 
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Fri Dec 06, 2013, 01:50 AM
(#8)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I hate slowplay without the nuts post flop and even then I don't really like it.

If we call and invite others in then what do we want to do. Let them hit something? How do we know post flop whether that something is ahead of us or behind? We've left them with a wider range, potentially multiple villains. I'd just raise. It's the Hot $3.30 so we will often get action anyway.

EDIT: Should add that I haven't watched the hand yet.

Last edited by bhoylegend; Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 02:09 AM..
 
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Fri Dec 06, 2013, 02:02 AM
(#9)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
I'm flatting almost always given this situation and stats. When you 3-bet vs UTG, you make it very easy for players behind to get away from hands like JJ/TT. By flatting, you invite a squeezer to shove hands like JJ/AQ etc.

It's a closer decision with KK/QQ. With those, I'd usually raise to isolate, though flatting kings might be fine too.

If we pick up overcalls (which would be pretty weird, given stack sizes) then you're committed to getting it in on 100% of flops, and I think you're maximising your profit by seeing a flop multiway.


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Fri Dec 06, 2013, 02:48 AM
(#10)
Rob Sharona's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 120
This is quite a polarising hand!
 
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Fri Dec 06, 2013, 06:17 AM
(#11)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
I'm flatting almost always given this situation and stats. When you 3-bet vs UTG, you make it very easy for players behind to get away from hands like JJ/TT. By flatting, you invite a squeezer to shove hands like JJ/AQ etc.

It's a closer decision with KK/QQ. With those, I'd usually raise to isolate, though flatting kings might be fine too.

If we pick up overcalls (which would be pretty weird, given stack sizes) then you're committed to getting it in on 100% of flops, and I think you're maximising your profit by seeing a flop multiway.
I agree with this summary. I know our pre-flop equity in the hand drops if we get all-in 3 or 4-way, but we are still considerably above 50% in both cases and the amount we win when we do end up winning surely makes up for our drop in pre-flop equity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Sharona View Post
This is quite a polarising hand!
This hand is certainly polarising in the opinion it generates!
 
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Fri Dec 06, 2013, 07:19 AM
(#12)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Tried loading your hand into SNG Wizard birdayy, but nothing popped out - but the replayer had pics of the villains' hole cards so I accidentally saw what everybody had Will try not to spill the beans

It would have been interesting to get feedback from SNG Wizard on optimal ranges and stuff - assuming birdayy had reraised or shoved to isolate rather than call, do villain 5 and villain 7 have an overcall range in light of the fact that this is a turbo, and they're short?


EDIT: My thoughts aren't very organized this morning - guess I was wondering how much short stacks' ranges change depending on whether birdayy called/raised/shoved.

Or like ... in a spot like this, are we maybe supposed to be thinking about who'd be the type to do a squeeze, and with what sort of range, so that we know if we want them to or not?

Maybe the fundamental debate that's arising with this hand is that strategy question of like ... say an equally big stack has a lesser pocket pair or AK - is it worth trying to add them to a pot at risk of them hitting a 2/3-outer for the chance of doubling up? And maybe there's no 'right' or 'wrong' answer? I don't know

Ahhh ... hopefully my random thoughts make some sense ...

Last edited by TrustySam; Fri Dec 06, 2013 at 07:41 AM..
 
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Fri Dec 06, 2013, 10:33 PM
(#13)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Interesting discussion so far.

Still not convinced which is the best play!
 
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Sat Dec 07, 2013, 03:57 AM
(#14)
Rob Sharona's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 120
I think I would 2.5x raise it pre in the hope that it would look like I'm trying to isolate with some like Ax or a pair like 1010 or JJ. My plan would be to make it look as pathetic so that one person tries to squeeze, but not too many others!
 
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Sat Dec 07, 2013, 10:39 AM
(#15)
IBNash's Avatar
Since: Oct 2013
Posts: 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
Interesting discussion so far.

Still not convinced which is the best play!
Not to add to anything that's been said so far, but wouldn't this be a perfect/textbook situation to flat to induce 3/4 bets? Everybody is shoving light to your hole cards and you have the stacks to play for it multiway. M ranges of villains might help but I'd play it exactly as played.
 
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Sun Dec 08, 2013, 01:27 PM
(#16)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...092_4000C7CB5D

Notice how GarethC played AA
 
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Sun Dec 08, 2013, 01:31 PM
(#17)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by spand42 View Post
The initial raise was bigger than the remaining stacks behind Gareth, aside from the button who had an extra few bb. Even if he reshoved its the same call for the remaining players. Not exactly the same situation.
 
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Sun Dec 08, 2013, 02:18 PM
(#18)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Hi all,

Great discussion!

This is a spot I would flat call personally. We start the hand with a nice stack of 48bb's, and villain is shoving for such a small amount, it seems like largely a waste of our aces isolating him... and aces don't grow on trees. If the guy were open shoving 12+ bb's then we are getting into the range where the pot is big enough to desire isolating it imo, and also where a flat call looks much more scary to the opponents behind us, reducing the chances they make a mistake.

As is though, we could theoretically flat here with hands that are strong enough to call the short stack shove, but don't want to play for a huge chunk of our stack, hands like 88 or AJs for example, which could encourage V6, 8, or 9 to make a raising mistake in an attempt to move us off and isolate V1. If our flat call draws an overcall or two, that's not terrible either, as bhoylegend asked:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
If we call and invite others in then what do we want to do. Let them hit something?
When we flat to invite others in, we are actually hoping they view our flat as weak and enter with a re-raise to isolate V1. If they over call though, yes, we want them to hit something... top pair would be preferable.

Quote:
How do we know post flop whether that something is ahead of us or behind?
We don't need to know. If we get 1 caller there will be like 5700 in the pot and the highest stack to pot ratio we will have is about 2.2 (and significantly lower if V8 flats). In other words, we will be able to profitably commit and play for stacks post flop with anyone, on basically any board texture. Such is the perks of having the strongest possible 1 pair hand in a shallow money situation.

Yes flatting is more risky than reraising to isolate. In order to accumulate chips we need to assume some risks, and part of a good tournament strategy is assuming these risks in a sound manner. I think this situation is one of those spots. It gets even better if there are aggressive 3-bettors or squeezers behind us, but we don't have enough data yet to know this. Regardless, the reward for isolating is particularly small here, so I prefer to open up the additional risk as I think the additional potential reward justifies it.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I think reraising to isolate is wrong... I am certain both plays are +EV. I think (and it's fair to debate) that flatting to induce action behind has a higher EV. I also think this would not be the case if V1 had a significantly bigger stack, and isolating becomes my preferred line.


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