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5NLzoom 6max, KK utg. betsize?

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5NLzoom 6max, KK utg. betsize? - Sat Dec 07, 2013, 07:51 PM
(#1)
rkleefstra's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,328


Villain 1 : vpip 55/pfr 36/3bet 25 over 11 hands
Villain 3 : vpip 60/pfr 0/3bet 0 over 5 hands

Hero (= me): TAG

pre:
Hero bets 0.15
Villain 1 raises 0.52
Villain 3 flats.

Hero wants to reraise because Villian 1 (V1) looks very loose in a tiny sample but in zoom you got to work with tiny. Hero is pretty sure Villain 1 will call a big bet with loose hand b/c his big stack and looseness.
Villain 3 (V3) looks very weak because he flats.


question: How much?

I think Hero has two options:
1) $2 - $2.50. 4 times their bets.
V1 will prob call with a wide range or shove with a much more narrow range.
V3 will almost certain fold to a raise/shove of V1.

2) Shove ourselfs
Hero might look weaker then when raising
V1 might call with hands like JJ+, AJs+ KQs maybe even worse. So still a fair amount of value.
V3 will fold (almost certain, unless he flatted with aces).


What is the better option?

(please don't tell me calling or folding are best options or I'm gonna start playing play money )


(Spoiler: http://www.boomplayer.com/nl/poker-h...771_A37CFCD4BA )



Tnx in advance !

Last edited by rkleefstra; Sat Dec 07, 2013 at 08:07 PM.. Reason: slight improvements
 
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Sat Dec 07, 2013, 08:43 PM
(#2)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
I don't really like shoving here - I think you'll be scaring off potential customers.

I'd 4Bet to around $2 and hope that there's no A-high flop...
 
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Sat Dec 07, 2013, 08:44 PM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi rk,

Calling or folding are the best options!



Haha, got ya! (you asked for it)

Seriously, we definitely want to 4-bet here. Firstly I think 4b shoving is quite a bit heavy handed. We'd like the villains to make mistakes, and this is the one action that they will probably be least likely to make a mistake against.

Additionally, by making a more normal 4b sizing, we leave V1 room to make both calling mistakes and raising mistakes... and given his actions in the 11 hands we've seen, I think we definitely want to leave the raising mistake door open for him to walk through.

A decent baseline for 4b sizing is about 2.2 x the 3-bettors total bet size (about 1.15 here). In this situation there are several factors that would lead me to adjust this sizing to be larger:

-Both villains are seemingly very loose
-Effective stack with V1 is 148bb, not 100 where the smaller sizing is more appropriate
-The pot is multi-way already, not heads up

We don't want to raise so big that it's clear we're not folding (if V1 thinks we might fold to a 5-bet, he could make additional raising mistakes).

I think about 1.65 is a nice number here. It's large enough to extract decent value preflop, and small enough that V1 still has an illusion of fold equity imo. If V1 ops to flat call it, I fully expect V3 to typically overcall and see the flop as well. This creates a nice flop shove sizing for us... it puts 4.95 in the pot and the remaining stacks will be 4.36(V3) and 5.75 (effective with V1). If we want to try and set up a bit better flop shove sizing, we could bump our preflop sizing to 1.75, but anything more than this (especially 2.50) seems too heavy handed for me, and is too likely to convey just how serious we are about getting this hand in the middle.


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Sun Dec 08, 2013, 01:29 PM
(#4)
rkleefstra's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,328
Tnx spand42 and Langolier.

The fact that V3 might also call if V1 flat calls a "normal" 4 bet was exactly the reason why I don't like a normally sized bet of $1.25 - $1.75.

I don't want to play KK in a 3 handed pot, do I?

Especially when flop contains an Ace, I would be beat a lot of the times. Or will they be folding to a shove on an A-high-flop because I am repping a monster-hand?
 
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Sun Dec 08, 2013, 03:16 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkleefstra View Post
Tnx spand42 and Langolier.

The fact that V3 might also call if V1 flat calls a "normal" 4 bet was exactly the reason why I don't like a normally sized bet of $1.25 - $1.75.
A normal sized 4b is about 1.15/1.20. 1.75 is definitely larger than normal.


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