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50nl Zoom 3bet pot OESD best approach

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50nl Zoom 3bet pot OESD best approach - Tue Dec 10, 2013, 02:01 AM
(#1)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Hero (Button) ($58.88)
SB ($67.90)
BB ($52.63)
UTG ($41.18)
MP ($17.83)
CO ($26.36)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10, 9
3 folds, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, BB raises to $4, Hero calls $3

Flop: ($8.25) K, J, 8 (2 players)
BB bets $4.50, Hero calls $4.50

Turn: ($17.25) 5 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $10, BB calls $10

River: ($37.25) 4 (2 players)
BB checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero....

This is vs a standard reg TAG..

I think this was an interesting hand to post because there is a lot of ways to play this hand with pros and cons.

- On the flop, I could raise or call, if I raise I can represent a stronger hand JJ,88,KJs and draws 9Ts, TQs, are on my range, I can probably bluff Jx, QQ, TT, 99 but I don't really want to call a shove vs his strong range, AA, AK, KK, JJ.

- On the turn as played we have two options as well, Bet or take a free card. Once he checks to me his hands looks like a weak K, QQ Jx, TT 99 AQ and some random stuff that cbet and he is just giving up. Once he checks I feel he is folding his garbage hands and calling his weak value hands.

- On the river If I would attempt to bluff those marginal hands, that at this point feel like they would be weak Kx,QQ, and Jx what is the best option, bet near half the pot, try to represent KQ sometimes AK or polarize our range, and shove?

I think I can represent more combinations of strong hands than small value hands, but some players would have a hard time believing I did't raise flop with a set or 2pair, and all draws and backdoors busted too so polarizing can be risky as well.
 
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Tue Dec 10, 2013, 04:11 AM
(#2)
PSO-xflixx's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,119
(Live Trainer)
Hey Carlos,

I think your line looks quite optimal. I dont like raising flop cause we have such a nice draw with backdoor clubs that we definitely want to utilize our position and not risk having to raise/call or raise/fold.

Turnbet seems mandatory to me as we don't have SD value, want to build a pot for the draw with decent outs and leave ourselves the option to bluff river.

From a game theoretical standpoint I think you need to bluff this river with at least some combos so T9s and QTs seem the best candidates for this, as well as some backdoor FDs. You will get to this river with all sets, KJ, some slowplayed AK so you do have a good number of valuecombos.

Question is whether at 50NL people are folding enough Kx here to make it a profitable shove in practice. Since he could have QQ/AJ as well I feel like bluffing seems reasonable here. Optimal size would be a shove cause we want to make sure he doesnt find an oddscall with Jx/QQ.


Live Trainer




Last edited by PSO-xflixx; Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 04:15 AM..
 
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Tue Dec 10, 2013, 10:33 AM
(#3)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
In villain's mind they beat QT/AQ/T9. That's a pretty big problem for us. We should probably be unbalanced and be value betting heavily in this spot because I think villain has a lot of one pair hands that won't be interested in folding.

Like you said Carlos a lot of hand readers won't think that you could slowplay this flop. I think its a good one to do so because you protect so many of your AT/AQ and QT/T9 peels and then if he has a hand you could stack he will get stacked on most turns anywyas if you want to take the option of raising turn.

I have been toying with checking back turn, but the potential to fold out AQ/AT is such a huge win for us. Therefore it might come down to this turn c-bet in 3b pot stat, if we can see him checking those hands on the turn I would bet, if he would barrel them then his turn checking range is split between hands that won't fold to two bets and hands that will fold to one. I think we can take the free card in that case.

But should we really have that high of value placed on folding AQ/AT on the turn? Can't we do that on the river most of the time? I think we can, so I am leaning towards checking back turn. It is not the end of the world, for example, if we hit a 9 and villain bets, we can always shove
 
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Tue Dec 10, 2013, 11:50 AM
(#4)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
Wow 6max noobs in this thread!
As for the hand, I feel like a shove accomplishes the same thing as a half pot bet.
If villain is calling a half pot bet with a Jx etc, chances are they will call the shove as well.
Although you should shove, if you are shoving there with Kx.
 
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Tue Dec 10, 2013, 12:25 PM
(#5)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Some really good thoughts ITT.
 
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Tue Dec 10, 2013, 12:59 PM
(#6)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Why can you shove a 9 if villain bets again?
 
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Tue Dec 10, 2013, 08:15 PM
(#7)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
Why can you shove a 9 if villain bets again?
Less bluffs in our range, and we already determine that he is more likely weak.

Thanks flixx and Gareth for their analysis, in case you are wondering I shoved river and got called by AJ. He blocks a lot of my strong hands, so good call by villain.
 
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Tue Dec 10, 2013, 08:29 PM
(#8)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Some really advanced play up there at 50nl - sounds like you're picking stuff up pretty quickly though Carlos
 
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Tue Dec 10, 2013, 11:09 PM
(#9)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaRLoS_DZ87 View Post
Thanks flixx and Gareth for their analysis, in case you are wondering I shoved river and got called by AJ. He blocks a lot of my strong hands, so good call by villain.

In commenting on this hand, I feel totally over my head since like ... this is like Level 3 thinking here, isn't it? You're thinking now about what you think the villain thinks you have (as a range of hands)?

And I'm like barely functioning at level 2 at best Also, like maybe the bet sizing is totally different at 50nl than at 10nl, but like ... was just wondering if maybe someone with AK, KQs might have tended to bet a bit larger on the turn since the board was getting wet? Or maybe not, I don't know ... like maybe if the villain had had a draw, he'd have double-barrelled, so those were less of a concern than like, trying to get value from those middle pair hands or whatever, I don't know?

Guess I was just thinking that maybe the size of the turn bet is what might have made the villain feel like his J with A kicker might be ahead of hands like JQ, JT (and failed draws), but I don't know ... just thought I'd mention that, but like I don't know how the bet would be perceived at that level or anything, so ... I don't know ....

Anyways ...

Last edited by TrustySam; Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 11:21 PM..
 
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Tue Dec 10, 2013, 11:39 PM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Too bad the river wasn't a heart - it sort of feels like a slightly more scary board might have done the trick? Maybe?

I don't know ...
 
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Wed Dec 11, 2013, 06:24 AM
(#11)
MrFlopes's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 152
Seems like a great shove and a better call. Nice hand. What happends now that you know villain can make that call? Do you adjust more for value there? I imagine you shove Kx but can you merge your range and start shoving QQ there for value or this doesn't make any sense at all?

Last edited by MrFlopes; Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 06:28 AM..
 
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Wed Dec 11, 2013, 10:05 AM
(#12)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
In commenting on this hand, I feel totally over my head since like ... this is like Level 3 thinking here, isn't it? You're thinking now about what you think the villain thinks you have (as a range of hands)?

And I'm like barely functioning at level 2 at best Also, like maybe the bet sizing is totally different at 50nl than at 10nl, but like ... was just wondering if maybe someone with AK, KQs might have tended to bet a bit larger on the turn since the board was getting wet? Or maybe not, I don't know ... like maybe if the villain had had a draw, he'd have double-barrelled, so those were less of a concern than like, trying to get value from those middle pair hands or whatever, I don't know?

Guess I was just thinking that maybe the size of the turn bet is what might have made the villain feel like his J with A kicker might be ahead of hands like JQ, JT (and failed draws), but I don't know ... just thought I'd mention that, but like I don't know how the bet would be perceived at that level or anything, so ... I don't know ....

Anyways ...
To be honest at the moment of the hand I was just thinking what can he have, and if I could represent a strong hand, not what much how my hands look.

I could go a little bit bigger on the turn to make a more comfortable shove size on the river, but I think it didn't matter that much on villains decision. On his shoes I would be thinking more like, he 4bet AK a big amount of the time and I block some combos of AK, as well as combos of KJ and JJ, plus he has a joker avatar.

Mrflopes, KQ I should be shoving for value, because he is not going to slowdown with AK on the turn most of the times, shoving KT I am not sure seems to depend on how wide of a 3bet range villains have and if he is more likely to be check calling turn with Kx or double barreling, if you have a read that he would be double barreling with Kx in similar spots then if he checks-call turn his range would be more Jx so I guess you could shove KT. QQ I would just like to show it down.
 
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Wed Dec 11, 2013, 01:01 PM
(#13)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaRLoS_DZ87 View Post
plus he has a joker avatar.
lol

All the 'joker' avis I've seen seem to play really well

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 01:06 PM..
 
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Wed Dec 11, 2013, 01:45 PM
(#14)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaRLoS_DZ87 View Post
Less bluffs in our range, and we already determine that he is more likely weak.

Thanks flixx and Gareth for their analysis, in case you are wondering I shoved river and got called by AJ. He blocks a lot of my strong hands, so good call by villain.
So can you shove a ten as well? Im assuming you can shove the 9 not just to keep you bluffing less but because you can rep a straight and if villain decides to bluff catch on the turn with some pairs you block 99 Q9 J9 and or TT QT JT if you can shove on a T to?
 

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