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Antes kicked in... now what?

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Antes kicked in... now what? - Sun Dec 15, 2013, 07:19 PM
(#1)
Espada_Nu.4's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 148
I have read a bunch of articles about how to play in this stage of the tournament, but they are contradicting. Some of them say that you should play looser because there are more dead money in the pot, while others say that you should play tighter because in that stage of the tour there a lot of shorties looking for a double up and will 3bet shove light a lot, therefore you should only play hands that you are willing to call an all in(i.e. 77+, AT+, KQ)
Which strategy should i follow... I have no idea
Could anyone tell me which one is using and why is it better from the other one?
A hand chart for early stage and one for midle(antes) would be helpfull
 
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Sun Dec 15, 2013, 07:36 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,802
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Hi Espada!

It totally depends on the stacks, table dynamics, and opps. There isn't going to be a set way that will work for all instances. What can be right for one situation will be wrong for another.... it depends!

John (JWK24)


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Sun Dec 15, 2013, 07:37 PM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,324
I tend to start shoving wider when antes kick in. Indeed, I start using the M number instead of BB, to decide when I should be shoving. For example, with 10bb on the button and no antes, I'm jamming about 28% of hands, as my M is 6.7. I'm short, but not completely desperate. Once antes are in play, my M will be closer to 4.5, so I'll be jamming around 35% of hands in that position. Stealing those blinds and antes is much more important when the pot is big, and you'll get anted out of the game if you don't steal at least one pot per orbit.

With a deeper stack, I'll tend to play a bit more carefully. I don't want to make a standard open with a marginal hand if there are "reshove stacks" yet to act, because raise-folding will be a big drain on my stack. I'll only raise if I've already decided to call if particular players 3-bet shove.


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Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Sun Dec 15, 2013 at 07:41 PM..
 
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Mon Dec 16, 2013, 11:50 AM
(#4)
Espada_Nu.4's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 148
Thats exactly how i play, too... Arty
But I have watched some videos of pros who open wide and they call a shove when they are getting 2:1 or better
 
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Mon Dec 16, 2013, 05:01 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Espada, are these the kind of rules of thumb you were maybe sort of looking for? If so, you're in luck that the only two tourney vids I've happened to watch covered this stuff lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Live Low Stake MTTs #1 $3.30-$11
Live Low Stake MTTs #2 $3.30-$11

Well, so I managed to get to 2 ... which is 2 more than I'd have gotten to if I hadn't stated publicly that I was going to try to get to some vids. So 2 is better than zero I suppose!

I wanted to watch some because, anybody else ever found themselves in the middle stages of a tournament, like maybe an hour and a half or two in, sitting on about 30bb's and card dead, watching all the looser peoples stacks gradually increasing in size as yours starts to dwindle? And then have you ever sort of felt like maybe people know things that you don't, and so you look around the 'net and just can't seem to find info on what that 'something' is that other people know that you suspect you don't?

I feel like ChewMe's videos answered some key questions.


A. If You're Card-Dead

The Resteal (*New concept to some of us)
But if you've been card-dead and are now down to 20bbs, Chewme would be looking for a resteal opportunity in late-position with the following hands: 99+, AQ+ . If somebody before you to act raises, chewme says it's better to shove than call, since the raise/blinds/antes will add up to quite a bit (eg 600+300+180 = like a 25% increase in stack). And if called, you ought to have good equity.

ChewMe says that yes, while it's nerve-wracking, avoid the temptation to just call and see the flop.


Push/Fold
So if you've been totally card-dead, with a stack size of about 10bb's that's generally considered push/fold mode. Here's Grayson Physioc's Charts (Spacegravy) - since I didn't get around to watching ChewMe's other videos, I didn't have much chance to see how his range differs frorm Graysons. But they both emphasize that ranges are fluid, and that you have to also be aware of stack sizes, position, and peoples' calling ranges.





B. If You've Built Up A Decent-Sized Stack

Middle Stages - Active Blinds Stealing (*New concept to some of us)

Once antes kicks in, ChewMe starts opening up his range. Even with like 40bb's, while there's time to be patient and wait for good cards, ChewMe urges us to give it a try because blinds and antes are worth a lot, and it will help maintain your stack in a way that you might otherwise not be able to without a good run of cards. For example, in video #2 @47:40, ChewMe went from a decent-sized stack to short in about 20 minutes, and that was with active blinds stealing attempts (but there was an active player to chewme's right who kept raising every hand)

If everybody folds to you in the button or sb, Chewme likes to raise 2.bb (he says 3xbb is too large a risk/leak) with hands with good flop potential:
- pocket pairs
- suited connectors
- any 2 broadway
- ChewMe's not crazy about Arag
- really doesn't like those junk hands like Q3o

EXCEPTIONS:
1. If one or both of the blinds are short (like 12bb's) - need to raise with a real hand you would be willing to call a shove with, since you get less credit for raising from the blinds

2. You have like a 16bb stack (not big but not small), and a mediocre hand like T4s - the hand's not good enough to call a raise, and folding would be too much of a leak, so we need a better hand.

3. The people in the blinds are super tight - then you can widen your range to stuff like K8o because there's so little chance they'll call

4. You've stolen blinds like the last 3 orbits, and you're hand's not good like J3o - best to give it a rest ever couple of orbits.

- also, 2.2xbb with antes means you only have to succeed 1 out of every 2 times to be profitable because blinds + antes > 2.2xbb ... will probably be better than that because even loose players have to play tighter out of position
 
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Mon Dec 16, 2013, 06:45 PM
(#6)
Espada_Nu.4's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 148
Thanks Sam, you've been VERY helpful
 
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Mon Dec 16, 2013, 08:06 PM
(#7)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
yw Wish I'd had time to watch more than *two* tourney vids - could def use the help lol
 
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Mon Dec 16, 2013, 10:30 PM
(#8)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
With a deeper stack, I'll tend to play a bit more carefully. I don't want to make a standard open with a marginal hand if there are "reshove stacks" yet to act, because raise-folding will be a big drain on my stack. I'll only raise if I've already decided to call if particular players 3-bet shove.
This makes it sound like you are tighter deep stacked when antes kick in? I am happier raise folding with a decent stack when antes are in play and the average stack is shallower because I am risking less (~2.2 x) to win more (blinds + antes).
You have to be aware of when you are committing yourself versus a short stack by opening, but equally if there is a reshove stack behind us that we are not committed against then this player has two moves - fold or shove - they are going to more often fold.
 

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