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PLO Question

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PLO Question - Mon Dec 02, 2002, 12:57 PM
(#1)
Deleted user
It's been a few weeks since this hand, so I'm a little hazy on the details, but it went something like this....

PLO tourney, blinds $150-$300.

MP player calls, Button calls, SB calls.
KFStu in the BB gets a free play with KcQd9h8c.

Flop comes JT7 (rainbow, no club), giving me the nut straight with no chance to make a flush.

SB checks, I bet the pot, everyone folds.

I'm still not convinced that this was the right play. Of course, if I catch an 8,9, A, or any 2-6, I still have the nuts--on the turn, that is. After the turn, I'm not even a 2:1 favorite, what with the potential for flush draws and the addition of another card that can potentially be paired on the river to make a boat or quads. Maybe I did do the right thing afterall.

Any chance I should go for a check-raise here? Or is this hand too weak for that? (Both MP and Button are reasonably aggressive and have me outchipped by about 3:2.)

And what if there's a club on the flop (giving me a second nut backdoor flush draw)? Does this change anything?

Your replies are appreciated.

KFStu
 
Old
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I Think You "Done Good" - Mon Dec 02, 2002, 02:06 PM
(#2)
Deleted user
Your pot raise is my choice. You've got the nuts - so make them pay to draw out! You won $900 (tripled your BB). Be happy.

What happens if the turn is a J or T - making your Nut str8 no longer the Nut??

- Or if the board pairs: encouraging trips or 2 high pairs to draw at the FH?

Can you possibly make more by "trapping?" sure. But you could also possibly lose it all!!

Save youre "Traps" for real nuts - like Aces full or Nut Flush on the River!!

Just my style!! FWIW.
 
Old
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Mon Dec 02, 2002, 09:06 PM
(#3)
Deleted user
I agree.....you have the "nuts for now" without much to back it up. Bet it while youve got it and be happy with the smaller pot.
 
Old
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Mon Dec 02, 2002, 09:08 PM
(#4)
Deleted user
Bet it out.

Drive out those two pairs or make them pay dearly for it.


Randy
 
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Mon Dec 02, 2002, 09:49 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
I disagree here. I bet a smaller amount - probably the minimum to half pot. When I flop the proverbial nuts, I want to build a pot, not make people fold. The only thing you are worried about here is runner runner flush or the board pairing up and giving someone a full house. On the turn, I up the antes and put in a good size bet and then make them pay for their draws.

Hazy
 
Old
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Tue Dec 03, 2002, 09:29 AM
(#6)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehazyone
When I flop the proverbial nuts, I want to build a pot, not make people fold.
That's the thing about Omaha...you can have the "proverbial nuts" and still be correct to fold YOUR hand. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. In PL Holdem, that's be the correct thing to do, but in Omaha, there are too many ways for people to legitimately hit their hand, no matter what comes on the flop. This game is all about redraws, and if you don't have them, you don't want people hanging around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehazyone
The only thing you are worried about here is runner runner flush or the board pairing up and giving someone a full house.
What about a Q or K, which could give someone a higher straight? No, I don't like giving a cheap card in this situation AT ALL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehazyone
On the turn, I up the antes and put in a good size bet and then make them pay for their draws.
On the turn, you may actually be behind to a big enough draw. If someone backs into a flush draw to go along with trips and a gutshot straight draw (say, for instance, someone limped with AQs66 and the turn brings the six of the right suit). Then what?

No, you've got to try and make them pay while you can. If you get reraised on the flop, then you can try and figure out where you are (maybe against a tie hand with a freeroll?), but straights generally don't hold up enough times to slowplay them.

Just my opinion...

Chris
 
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Tue Dec 03, 2002, 09:45 AM
(#7)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
It is my understanding that "Omaha" is derived the Latin word "Omahanus" which was widely used in the phrase (roughly translated) "Take that river card and shove it up your Omahanus!" shouted frequently by those who played straits, two pair, and small sets without redraws.
 
Old
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Tue Dec 03, 2002, 12:13 PM
(#8)
Deleted user
Excellent Joe! Knew you were a great poker player, but I had no idea you spoke fluent Latin!

Tim
 
Old
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Tue Dec 03, 2002, 03:48 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
Chris,

If someone wants to call my half pot bet with AQ or AK on a gutshot draw - I want them to. If they hit it so be it. Again, my objective in PLO is to build pots up and win as many chips as possible. Betting pot on that flop is not going to do it - everyone will fold unless they have 89 as well, and with me having KQ to go along with the 89, the chances are good that the naked AQ or AK is not there, or is not going to call a decent sized bet.

Like you, however, this is just my opinion - you're probably a much better player at PLO than I am.

Hazy
 
Old
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Tue Dec 03, 2002, 09:00 PM
(#10)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehazyone
Chris,

If someone wants to call my half pot bet with AQ or AK on a gutshot draw - I want them to. If they hit it so be it. Again, my objective in PLO is to build pots up and win as many chips as possible.
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia; and only slightly less well known is this: never think like a holdem player when Omaha is the game!!

Ahem.

AK or AQ by itself will not call, but, of course, there's the small matter of those other two cards. AK or AQ with a set will certainly call, and then it gets worse from there, as there are only 11 cards in the deck that will guarantee you will not be facing a flush draw on the turn.

You are not in a great deal of trouble against one player, normally, because it would take a perfect hand to have all three draws going (the set, the flush AND the gutshot). If you get called in two spots, though, you could be in deep, DEEP trouble on the turn, and not even realize it.

No, I say pot it, and deal with your opponents' reaction to that from there. If there are two bad hands out there, you want to make at least one fold then and there.

My main point is this: pot-building is for holdem, where the chances of getting outdrawn are much more consistent throughout the play of the hand. Omaha needs to be played much more straightforwardly; you lose money a lot more often by playing deceptively and by building pots in Omaha.

Chris
 
Old
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Tue Dec 03, 2002, 09:31 PM
(#11)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackAces
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia; and only slightly less well known is this: never think like a holdem player when Omaha is the game!!

Ahem.
HAHAHA...HAHAHAH....HAHAack

--Greagar
 
Old
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Tue Dec 03, 2002, 09:47 PM
(#12)
Deleted user
Hazy, gotta go with BA on this one.


The thing about Omaha High is that it could go from:
Straight nuts on flop to
Flush nuts on turn to
Full House nuts on the river


I know no flush possible here on turn, but a str8 is just not enough here for me not want to take down the pot.

Randy
 
Old
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Tue Dec 03, 2002, 09:51 PM
(#13)
Deleted user
It's all good - ya'll play your way, I'll play mine...LOL.

Hazy

P.S. For the record I hold my own in PLO.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 11, 2002, 12:30 AM
(#14)
Deleted user
Going for a check-raise in PL is less effective than in NL, and I don't think it's of any use here. Straightforward play in Omaha is the way to go, long-term.It's much worse giving a free card in this game
than in numerous holdem situations.

To the main question, though: you have the temporary nuts, but any card pairing the board makes it hard to like your chances. IMO,
the undesirable feature here is that you have no redraws to this hand. If someone had called, and the turn brings, let us say, a queen, counterfeiting your hand, what then? Too many bad things can happen in Omaha when you lack redraws.

Alan
 
Old
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Wed Dec 11, 2002, 12:41 AM
(#15)
Deleted user
Going for a check-raise in PL is less effective than in NL, and I don't think it's of any use here. Straightforward play in Omaha is the way to go, long-term.It's much worse giving a free card in this game
than in numerous holdem situations.

To the main question, though: you have the temporary nuts, but any card pairing the board makes it hard to like your chances. IMO,
the undesirable feature here is that you have no redraws to this hand. If someone had called, and the turn brings, let us say, a queen, counterfeiting your hand, what then? Too many bad things can happen in Omaha when you lack redraws.

Alan
 
Old
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Wed Dec 11, 2002, 10:14 AM
(#16)
Deleted user
Bet it and take it.

I've tried it both ways. Every time I have wrap str8 and bet less than the pot. I have lost. Several times the flush and Fullhouse draws beat me. Several times the counter fit of one card (the only one that could beat me) hit the next card.

I've even been beat'n with some one(over cards gut shot) betting into me (the same above) and I raise the pot all-in and they catch the only card in the deck to beat me.

If you have no re-draws, bet the flop hard. If they call, they have some kind of draw. They must pay to beat you. If they call (they probably have a set or some nut draw for a higher str8). If the board pair you'll be done. If the next cardds makes your str8 second best (you're done if they bet). You may be in bad shape, they might have the same str8 as you with a set or back door flush draw. In that case, you are in big trouble. You'll get raised because, they are on a freeroll to beat you

PLO is not to comfortable with str8's without a re-draw. It's rare to get a str8 made big enough that you can slow play.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 11, 2002, 12:20 PM
(#17)
Deleted user
Quote:
Any chance I should go for a check-raise here?
Depends on the depth of money in terms of getting all-in by putiing the last raise in.

Maybe a good idea to check if you expect someone to bluff at it. Maybe a good idea to bet on that texture board. I would expect someone to have something. So, the deciding factor is how deep the money is. The worse thing you could do is put a large portion of your stack in on flop then be out of position on turn when a scare card comes. So either go for check-raise all-in, or bet-re-raise all-in.

Generally, it is best to bet the full pot to protect your hand rather than check in PLO, unless you can get all-in by check-raising.
 

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