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JJ 2NL UTG+1 facing UTG raise vs LAg

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JJ 2NL UTG+1 facing UTG raise vs LAg - Tue Dec 17, 2013, 05:39 PM
(#1)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
UTG is playing 34/21, hasn't folded to a 3bet, but only across 2 opportunities. That said, I still perceive his range to be fairly strong given position, and just call instead of 3betting. Importantly, his PFAg is 0.5.

CO is playing 15/4 across 55 hands.

BU is 31/7 across 102 hands.

The only question I need to ask here is, based on what I perceive the range of UTG to be, raising pre and leading on the flop into a 4 way pot, is this as super standard a fold as I made?

On the flop I have an overpair to the board but I just felt I was no good in the hand. I cant say I was explicitly set-mining pre-flop because that wouldnt be true. I have the 4th best starting hand. I just didnt see any other way to play this.

 
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Tue Dec 17, 2013, 07:57 PM
(#2)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Did you see GarethC's multiway lesson yesterday?

He advocated making a very similar type of fold to the one you just made, principally because the hand will be so hard to play OOP on the turn and river.

This situation is slightly different - I was wondering if a raise might be the better play? This raise would look really strong but I'm not really sure what better hands you would be folding out or worse hands you'd be keeping in.

Therefore I actually like your fold on the flop.
 
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Wed Dec 18, 2013, 04:33 AM
(#3)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
JJ is never easy to play! Preflop I prefer calling with JJ rather than 3betting. There are so many overcards that can come on the flop, the range of the ep player will be weighted toward the top end(even though he is fairly loose) plus you have position on him. 3betting turns your hand into a bluff since you would presumably be folding to a 4bet.

When V6 and V7 call behind, they will more often have suited connector, non-premium pairs and Axs type of hands. The flop is most likely to have helped one of these two players. Also, they have position on you. Similar to preflop, you could consider raising, but again we would be forced to fold if anyone 3bets. Calling might be ok if we thought we could get to the river cheaply. Here though V2 seems to like his hand and this board probably helped at least one of the two left to act. Your hand is going to be tough to play on the remaining streets. You are unsure if V2 has an overpair. And you are unsure if V6/V7 could have a set or strong draw. I like your fold on the flop. It mimizes lour losses in an unclear spot that is more likely to get more unclear and more expensive on the remaining streets.

Nice hand

Roland GTX
 
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Wed Dec 18, 2013, 05:40 AM
(#4)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Thanks spand and Roland for the replies and analysis.

@spand, I don't like raising the UTG player here, although he is fairly loose. He did appear to be at least partially positionally aware as he was more aggressive in later positions than he was from early. It was also a short handed table and most of the players were weak and passive. His pre-flop looseness was offset by his post flop tight/passiveness I think. My initial plan was to take over the betting lead if he simply checked flop. I would assume he had less than top pair and was ready to give up on the flop. As it happened to play out, I felt that it was too expensive to continue, and I didn't want to pay more to see if my overpair was the best overpair, or if one of the other two had hit.

I did see most of Gareths class, this hand took place on the day of the class but before it started, it helped me make the decision to post it though.

@Roland, thanks for the positive reinforcement here, I need to continue making folds like this to try and increase my win rate. If I'd been villain two I probably would have had the same problem getting away from my aces but I'd like to think I would have done as against the action that took place, I'd figure I was nearly dead in the hand.

I got away from an overpair on a fairly innocuous board. Sometime making a fold gives you such confidence for a session. I finished the day up 5BI. I'm used to playing higher than 2NL but was doing some low variance grinding towards 5000 VPPs.
 
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Wed Dec 18, 2013, 08:25 AM
(#5)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
I think it simply boils down to the fact that we have an overpair at 2nl.

Classic call and reevaluate for me.
 
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Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:30 AM
(#6)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I fail to see what calling to evaluate does in this particular hand.

If I recall correctly, there is 42c in the pot before flop action takes place, original raiser, who doesn't fire off cbets for the hell of it, fires out ~75% cbet. I'm already doubting my hand is good. If I call I may not even get to see the next card as there are two behind me still to act. If I do see the turn and it's a blank, were in an inflated pot already, do I fold my overpair then having paid another 15bb? If everyone calls it's a huge pot relative to the effective stacks and more difficult to get away from.

I feel this was a good fold based on the info I had at the time
 
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Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:10 PM
(#7)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,354
Calling would be standard if heads up, but folding here is the best play for all the reasons you've said. For the raiser to fire a c-bet into this many people, he pretty much has to have you beat, unless he has specifically / (two hands that are flipping vs you), or likes burning money. Well played, sir.


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