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1.10 NLH MTT : QTs SB vs BB .. help!!

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1.10 NLH MTT : QTs SB vs BB .. help!! - Wed Dec 18, 2013, 08:12 PM
(#1)
m1ndmaster's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 44
Hello everyone,

first time posting here.. not sure if everything is according rules.. but hoping so..

So I open from SB.. and them ...
Loose aggressive player on BB, not many hands played together so not much information, sorry, i think he's only being aggressive cause of stack size..
My questions, How bad was the play? What mistakes have I made?

thanks in advance.. best regards,

m1ndmaster

 
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Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:51 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
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Hi m1ndmaster!

With QTs from the SB, when it folds to me, I'm going to make a standard raise, which for this blind level is to 3BB+1BB for each limper (450 chips). I want to keep all of my bets and raises standard as that helps to conceal the strength of my hand. Players that bet more with better hands and less with marginal ones are basically turning their cards face-up to an observant opponent... something that I want to avoid.
I also do not want to raise to less than this or I can be giving the opp the correct odds to try to outdraw me, plus to make it even worse, I'm out of position postflop.

I flop top pair and I'm definitely going to lead out for a standard value bet. With one opp in the pot, a standard bet is 1/2 pot, so I will bet 390. Bets postflop need to be sized based on the size of the pot, number of opps and board texture. Once again, I want to keep my bet standard and to not bet less, as this could once again give the opp the correct odds to try to outdraw me.

The turn is a blank and once again, I need to make a standard value bet of 1/2 pot (690). I do not want to check and have the opp get a freecard to try to outdraw me. The opp now makes an abnormally large bet. This bet is over 1/3 of my stack, which means that I'm pot-committed and need to shove or fold. With a read that the opp is loose, I'm going to shove.

Now.. let's look at this from the opp's perspective.

Preflop, I have the SB make an abnormally weak min-raise, which I have the correct odds to call basically with any 2 cards.. so I am definitely not folding.
I flop bottom pair and the opp makes another abnormally small bet. Since they could have easily missed the flop, I'm calling here too.
The turn is a blank and now the opp shows even more weakness by checking (their third weak play in a row, with each one of the plays being weaker and weaker... this is a perfect time for me to make a standard value bet. Once I bet and the opp shoves, then it comes down to a read on the opp as to whether I call or not. If I think that the opp could be bluffing (which could very easily be the case due to the weak plays), then I'll call.. if not, I'll fold.

The key here is to make standard bet sizes both preflop and postflop.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Dec 19, 2013, 05:25 AM
(#3)
m1ndmaster's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi m1ndmaster!

With QTs from the SB, when it folds to me, I'm going to make a standard raise, which for this blind level is to 3BB+1BB for each limper (450 chips). I want to keep all of my bets and raises standard as that helps to conceal the strength of my hand. Players that bet more with better hands and less with marginal ones are basically turning their cards face-up to an observant opponent... something that I want to avoid.
I also do not want to raise to less than this or I can be giving the opp the correct odds to try to outdraw me, plus to make it even worse, I'm out of position postflop.

I flop top pair and I'm definitely going to lead out for a standard value bet. With one opp in the pot, a standard bet is 1/2 pot, so I will bet 390. Bets postflop need to be sized based on the size of the pot, number of opps and board texture. Once again, I want to keep my bet standard and to not bet less, as this could once again give the opp the correct odds to try to outdraw me.

The turn is a blank and once again, I need to make a standard value bet of 1/2 pot (690). I do not want to check and have the opp get a freecard to try to outdraw me. The opp now makes an abnormally large bet. This bet is over 1/3 of my stack, which means that I'm pot-committed and need to shove or fold. With a read that the opp is loose, I'm going to shove.

Now.. let's look at this from the opp's perspective.

Preflop, I have the SB make an abnormally weak min-raise, which I have the correct odds to call basically with any 2 cards.. so I am definitely not folding.
I flop bottom pair and the opp makes another abnormally small bet. Since they could have easily missed the flop, I'm calling here too.
The turn is a blank and now the opp shows even more weakness by checking (their third weak play in a row, with each one of the plays being weaker and weaker... this is a perfect time for me to make a standard value bet. Once I bet and the opp shoves, then it comes down to a read on the opp as to whether I call or not. If I think that the opp could be bluffing (which could very easily be the case due to the weak plays), then I'll call.. if not, I'll fold.

The key here is to make standard bet sizes both preflop and postflop.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)

Hello,

Thanks John.. It helps a lot.. Very well explained and detailed.. much appreciated!


Maybe a mistake but I min raise every 2 cards I wanna play (if opening action), pairs, suited connectors, etc...
I usually do size better my c-bets, depending on stack sizes, players involved, and board texture..


But in this case I choose to play like this... You read the villain exactly as I wanted him to think I was playing..
I knew he'd call any 2 cards, my mission was to get as many chips as I could.. maybe this was the biggest mistake I made..

Let me try to explain my thought process, I min raised, I knew that if he had a strong hand he'd 3-bet me pre.. He had done it before.. but he called.. I flop top pair, given his range I'm way ahead.. I c-bet 2 bbs, Here I'm thinking he'd raise if he's stronger.. but he just calls as I expected, price as you said was good, I'm thinking he has small pair or flush draw.. but the turn is a blank as u said, so I just went for it, I was c/r, all in if possible.. to get as many chips as possible.. Had he checked the turn, I'd probably shove any card on the river or bet pot size to try and take down the pot..
Does this makes sense?

the more I think about it the more I dwell..
I could easily have QQ there, and believe me I'd play it the same say.. I might even have checked the flop..
I could have diamonds, that's it.. by checking the turn he thinks I'm after the flush so he pot sizes bet to make it hard for me to call.. but still that check raise looks strong.. J2, I can have AQ, A3 A2 even A7 KQ K7s.. I'd never call that.. 6 outs...
I could've fired all 3 barrels but the result with be the same.. had he called.. unless he folds on the flop/turn.. but do i really want him to fold, knowing he's loose?


I'm sorry I may have written too much.. I do agree with your assessment..
Thank you
Regards,
 
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Thu Dec 19, 2013, 06:32 AM
(#4)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
JWK - I'm not really sure what you are talking about with the pre-flop bet sizing - there are no limpers in this pot, it's folded round to the SB. From the SB, I personally like to make it a touch bigger than a min-bet because we are OOP, so I'd make it 350, but I don't think this is a big deal.

I think OTF I'd bet closer to half pot, like JWK said you want to make it a mistake for villain to call you with a flush draw or straight draw. You're betting this flop for value because you want villain to call with worse Qx, 3x, or random high cards that don't know how to fold.

Normally I would definitely fire another CBet OTT. I'd actually make this a bit smaller than 1/2 pot as draws are now less likely to get there and I want it to be tempting for villain to stay in the hand with his weaker holdings.

Actually in hindsight, you probably played the turn very well. Given your opponent-specific read, checking to a LAG who senses weakness is like giving a red rag to a bull. And he sure enough fires a huge pot-sized bet to try and scare you. I think shoving is the correct play as I don't think villain would play his true value hands (sets, AQ, two pair) like this.

And he sucks out on the river, gg.
 
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Thu Dec 19, 2013, 04:07 PM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
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Hi m1ndmaster and spand42!

First, spand42, just because I put in 3BB+1BB for each limper, doesn't mean that I'm increasing it for a limper that doesn't exist. I said I'd raise to 450, which is 3BB.

m1ndmaster,

If I'm the opp, I'm basically never putting you on QQ there. QQ would not be played weakly by an opp unless they are just asking to get beat. If they give me the right odds to be in the hand, then honestly, they deserve to lose.
Prime example of this was a hand that happened to me a couple days ago. I'm in the BB with 38o and the opp decides to limp KK at me. Well, with junk, I'm checking and seeing a free flop of... 383. Needless to say, I double up and then felt them a couple hand later because they're now on tilt from their aces losing.. as they should since they gave me the right odds to be in the hand.

The check on the turn is NOT a sign of strength. It's even more weakness than what was shown pre and on the flop. It does say draw or weak made hand.

Also, checking a set on the flop is a huge recipe for disaster. The ONLY time that I can check and give the opp even the opportunity to take a free card is IF there is not a single card in the deck that can beat me. As long as the opp could have any draw.. this is not the case.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Dec 19, 2013, 05:56 PM
(#6)
m1ndmaster's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by spand42 View Post
JWK - I'm not really sure what you are talking about with the pre-flop bet sizing - there are no limpers in this pot, it's folded round to the SB. From the SB, I personally like to make it a touch bigger than a min-bet because we are OOP, so I'd make it 350, but I don't think this is a big deal.

I think OTF I'd bet closer to half pot, like JWK said you want to make it a mistake for villain to call you with a flush draw or straight draw. You're betting this flop for value because you want villain to call with worse Qx, 3x, or random high cards that don't know how to fold.

Normally I would definitely fire another CBet OTT. I'd actually make this a bit smaller than 1/2 pot as draws are now less likely to get there and I want it to be tempting for villain to stay in the hand with his weaker holdings.

Actually in hindsight, you probably played the turn very well. Given your opponent-specific read, checking to a LAG who senses weakness is like giving a red rag to a bull. And he sure enough fires a huge pot-sized bet to try and scare you. I think shoving is the correct play as I don't think villain would play his true value hands (sets, AQ, two pair) like this.

And he sucks out on the river, gg.

Hi spand,

Thank you for your evaluation..

My cbet slider is configured to 50%, and I agree with you too.. In normal conditions half pot is the correct c-bet.. Although through playing I've noticed most players will fold to any c-bet if they don't connect to the board..

Regardless I was looking for the optimal play in this situations, and on that point, half the pot is the best flop bet..

I normal conditions I'd do same as you explained, on the turn..

I think you totally get my action in your final comments..

Regards,
mind
 
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Thu Dec 19, 2013, 06:28 PM
(#7)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi m1ndmaster and spand42!

First, spand42, just because I put in 3BB+1BB for each limper, doesn't mean that I'm increasing it for a limper that doesn't exist. I said I'd raise to 450, which is 3BB.
Ah - I misread what you wrote
 
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Thu Dec 19, 2013, 07:47 PM
(#8)
m1ndmaster's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi m1ndmaster and spand42!

First, spand42, just because I put in 3BB+1BB for each limper, doesn't mean that I'm increasing it for a limper that doesn't exist. I said I'd raise to 450, which is 3BB.

m1ndmaster,

If I'm the opp, I'm basically never putting you on QQ there. QQ would not be played weakly by an opp unless they are just asking to get beat. If they give me the right odds to be in the hand, then honestly, they deserve to lose.
Prime example of this was a hand that happened to me a couple days ago. I'm in the BB with 38o and the opp decides to limp KK at me. Well, with junk, I'm checking and seeing a free flop of... 383. Needless to say, I double up and then felt them a couple hand later because they're now on tilt from their aces losing.. as they should since they gave me the right odds to be in the hand.

The check on the turn is NOT a sign of strength. It's even more weakness than what was shown pre and on the flop. It does say draw or weak made hand.

Also, checking a set on the flop is a huge recipe for disaster. The ONLY time that I can check and give the opp even the opportunity to take a free card is IF there is not a single card in the deck that can beat me. As long as the opp could have any draw.. this is not the case.

John (JWK24)

Hi again John,

That's my point exactly they'll have no idea how strong my hand is.. I do understand I can get into some difficult positions by playing a strong hand in a weak way.. But I think in some cases I get more value showing weakness.

Regarding the example you wrote, we'll never know why he limped in the first place, and that was a big mistake, but 383, when holding 38, is like a jackpot, and I bet you slow played it..right?

I think I understand what you're saying, and I try to be consistent with bet sizes in all streets, but on the other hand I think it's also good to mix my game a little..

thank you, regards,
 
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Thu Dec 19, 2013, 09:53 PM
(#9)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1ndmaster View Post
Hi Regarding the example you wrote, we'll never know why he limped in the first place, and that was a big mistake, but 383, when holding 38, is like a jackpot, and I bet you slow played it..right?
Not a chance. I led the flop OOP and got shoved on.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Dec 20, 2013, 01:21 PM
(#10)
m1ndmaster's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Not a chance. I led the flop OOP and got shoved on.

John (JWK24)

that makes sense..

Ty John
 
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Fri Dec 20, 2013, 04:40 PM
(#11)
M@NI@C86's Avatar
Since: Feb 2012
Posts: 15
I think that you played it well according to your read... the check on the turn was good if you knew that he would bet a lot of hands, you just were unlucky!
 
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Fri Dec 20, 2013, 05:54 PM
(#12)
V.Zaridas's Avatar
Since: Oct 2013
Posts: 2
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Well i think your play was good, You checked the turn to let him think that your weak or you are on a draw.

Cbet was good enough and you would have done the same even if you missed the flop.

But comparing you have effective stack 28bb and he has 201bb by the time he decides to semi bluff the turn with betting 1/2 of your stack, with your shove he is pot commited noone will fold ever there with 32k stack and a pair even if he knows he is loosing.

The only thing went bad it was your luck.

It was a lucky river for him those things happens everyday thats why the game is so fun because the worst hand wins sometimes in the end.

I hope you have a good streak of luck in the future.

Never give up!
 
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Hi - Sat Dec 21, 2013, 05:02 AM
(#13)
snjkv's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 4
Let's keep it simple. Going all-in couldn't be wrong and it's a good play. You have the highest pair and from the bets and the communal cards, the opponent couldn't have made a 2 pair or a 3 of a kind. Until the river, you were the favourite with QQ while the opponent had 22. It's the river that made the difference.

However, You still could have bet a normal 300 like you did on the flop, as the villain 2 was just calling your bets and not himself raising. That could have given you more information on the river as the villain would certainly have made a bet or raised on the river when the last deuce came.

Lesson: This happens to most of the players (sometimes even the experienced)and that's how we all learn.

Good luck!
 
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Mon Dec 23, 2013, 10:55 AM
(#14)
m1ndmaster's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by M@NI@C86 View Post
I think that you played it well according to your read... the check on the turn was good if you knew that he would bet a lot of hands, you just were unlucky!

thanks..

happy holidays
 
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Mon Dec 23, 2013, 10:58 AM
(#15)
m1ndmaster's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Zaridas View Post
Well i think your play was good, You checked the turn to let him think that your weak or you are on a draw.

Cbet was good enough and you would have done the same even if you missed the flop.

But comparing you have effective stack 28bb and he has 201bb by the time he decides to semi bluff the turn with betting 1/2 of your stack, with your shove he is pot commited noone will fold ever there with 32k stack and a pair even if he knows he is loosing.

The only thing went bad it was your luck.

It was a lucky river for him those things happens everyday thats why the game is so fun because the worst hand wins sometimes in the end.

I hope you have a good streak of luck in the future.

Never give up!
Hi

Thanks, I agree when u say that on the turn he is pot committed..

I can sure use some luck.. ty, gl to you too..

and happy holidays..
 
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Mon Dec 23, 2013, 11:07 AM
(#16)
m1ndmaster's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by snjkv View Post
Let's keep it simple. Going all-in couldn't be wrong and it's a good play. You have the highest pair and from the bets and the communal cards, the opponent couldn't have made a 2 pair or a 3 of a kind. Until the river, you were the favourite with QQ while the opponent had 22. It's the river that made the difference.

However, You still could have bet a normal 300 like you did on the flop, as the villain 2 was just calling your bets and not himself raising. That could have given you more information on the river as the villain would certainly have made a bet or raised on the river when the last deuce came.

Lesson: This happens to most of the players (sometimes even the experienced)and that's how we all learn.

Good luck!

Hi,

I understand, but I think the end result would be the same, I'd have bet at least 1000k on the turn leaving me with only 2.5k, had he called I guess I'd have to be all in either way..

Happens way too many times..

Thanks, and good luck out there too..

happy holidays,
 

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