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zoom no info - Fri Dec 20, 2013, 02:34 PM
(#1)
GayLooser's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 62
BronzeStar
should i be calling or push is fine?
 
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Fri Dec 20, 2013, 08:29 PM
(#2)
fp_boss77's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 490
Hi,
I think the shove here is fine, we have a lot of outs and there will be a lot of cards that could kill our actions against the villain, like and overcard to his likely Overpair.
And we have many outs here, the flush draw and the gutter, and most of the times our overcards will be alive as well. Played this hand fine.
 
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Fri Dec 20, 2013, 08:48 PM
(#3)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
I like the preflop action - either flat calling or squeezing is fine, I prefer the squeeze though since we would be OOP if we just flat called.

Villain's range for cold-calling both a 2Bet and 3Bet is massively weighted towards pocket pairs, 22-TT, maybe JJ/QQ depending on how passive he is. He might also have AK or AQ but we take away some these outs.

You flop a monster draw. Nut flush draw, a gutter and two overcards. You lead out big which is great!

And then you get raised. I think villain is capable of raising his entire range. With 66-QQ he has an overpair to the board. With 22, 44 and 55 he's flopped a set. With 33 he's up and down. With AK/AQ he has overcards and a gutter, but no flush draw.

Against this range, we are a 54.18% favourite to win the hand if all the chips were in the middle. Even if you take out his AK/AQ bluffs, we are still 52.73% favourite.

Therefore I think going all in is exactly the correct play.

In the end he called you being a 60/40 underdog (despite currently having the best hand). You'll make a lot of money playing poker if you keep going all in 60/40 ahead!
 
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Sat Dec 21, 2013, 06:32 AM
(#4)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I dont see you at the table on this hand?
 
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Sat Dec 21, 2013, 07:33 AM
(#5)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,034
(Community Coordinator)
Hello,

Please do not post hands played by other players, only post hands that you've played yourself.

Cheers,
Raiser


Moderator

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Last edited by royalraise85; Sat Dec 21, 2013 at 11:03 AM..
 
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Sat Dec 21, 2013, 10:49 AM
(#6)
GayLooser's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 62
BronzeStar
dis iz my new acc since orig was frozen but PSO name remained same
 
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Sat Dec 21, 2013, 10:56 AM
(#7)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,034
(Community Coordinator)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GayLooser View Post
dis iz my new acc since orig was frozen but PSO name remained same
OK, no problem, but you will need to email support@pokerschoolonline.com to request that they update your Username here at the school also.

Cheers,
Raiser


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Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Dec 21, 2013, 11:34 AM
(#8)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
To each their own
Sure numbers look ok with 60/40, assuming you know what the other player has, but I'm calling the flop and check/folding the turn.

When he re-raises you on the flop, he's got a good hand and you've got nothing, so if you like spewing money and gambling with garbage (no hands made after flop or turn) hoping to catch, sure, go fishing
 
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Sat Dec 21, 2013, 11:42 AM
(#9)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
To each their own
Sure numbers look ok with 60/40, assuming you know what the other player has, but I'm calling the flop and check/folding the turn.

When he re-raises you on the flop, he's got a good hand and you've got nothing, so if you like spewing money and gambling with garbage (no hands made after flop or turn) hoping to catch, sure, go fishing
I count 15 outs with no other info in this spot, I want to play for stacks. Far too nitty giving up in this spot. Well played O/P.


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Sat Dec 21, 2013, 11:52 AM
(#10)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
When he re-raises you on the flop, he's got a good hand and you've got nothing.
I disagree - against his pure value range we have 52.73% equity. I don't think putting money in ahead is ever a bad thing! If you add the (admittedly small) fold equity, I think shoving is the right play.
 
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Sat Dec 21, 2013, 12:40 PM
(#11)
Danutz75's Avatar
Since: Oct 2013
Posts: 273
I like the play, 18 outs I am getting it in on the flop if possible in this format. 58 percent favourite, if he has got a pair 77-JJ why give him the chance to slam on the brakes if a A/Q/3 or spade appears turn or river?

Last edited by Danutz75; Sat Dec 21, 2013 at 12:42 PM..
 
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Sat Dec 21, 2013, 12:49 PM
(#12)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danutz75 View Post
I like the play, 18 outs I am getting it in on the flop if possible in this format. 58 percent favourite, if he has got a pair 77-JJ why give him the chance to slam on the brakes if a A/Q/3 or spade appears turn or river?
I missed the gutshot straight draw. You are right 18 outs and an even stronger reason to play for stacks on the flop.

In a STT or MTT it's different as you have an ICM decision but in cash you can reload.


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Sat Dec 21, 2013, 03:23 PM
(#13)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovalman View Post
In a STT or MTT it's different as you have an ICM decision but in cash you can reload.
You're spot on - in cash games you can and should be very happy getting it all in as a 52/48 favourite. Whereas in a tournament, particularly in the early stages, it might be more prudent to fold in such a marginal spot and try to take advantage of a clearer edge later on when the relative value of your chips increases.
 
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Sat Dec 21, 2013, 04:06 PM
(#14)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
You're only way behind sets and straights, but you're a slight favourite over all one pair hands, and there's a lot of dead money in the pot that serves as an overlay on this "flip". Getting it in is fine, as it's definitely profitable in the long run.


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Sat Dec 21, 2013, 04:17 PM
(#15)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
GL, you still want to be called GL, or should I switch to NS?


I kind of see where everybody's coming from - because like, coin flips are 0EV, so with cash games you could go either way and in the long-run it doesn't really matter.


Some other factors to consider maybe:

1. villain's re-raise range - for this hand to be a flip, you'd have to be able to rule out 33, 44, 55

2. price to call - here's it's less because it was a 3-bet multi-way pot, and the villain's re-raise was so small

3. fold equity - hmmm ... this one confuses me because ... okay, it'd be 0EV to have a shove be called by overpairs to the board, and it'd be +EV to have shove met with a fold by overpairs. But it'd be -EV to have villains calling with sets, which all villains would do.

Maybe if for some reason you could rule out 33, 44, 55 from the villain's range, and knew that the villain would fold most overpairs to the board to a shove, THEN a shove would be a plus?

Here though it seems like versus the villain's range including sets AKs was maybe more like 40/60, but was getting sufficient price to get the $ in for this to be EV neutral in the long-run because of all the $ already in the pot. Which would make it okay to shove or fold I guess


Not sure about a call though - what do people think of a call?


Gosh, it was so crazy at the mall ...


PS Oh, looks like Arty and I posted at the same time

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Dec 21, 2013 at 04:24 PM..
 
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Sun Dec 22, 2013, 05:53 AM
(#16)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
GL, you still want to be called GL, or should I switch to NS?


I kind of see where everybody's coming from - because like, coin flips are 0EV, so with cash games you could go either way and in the long-run it doesn't really matter.


Some other factors to consider maybe:

1. villain's re-raise range - for this hand to be a flip, you'd have to be able to rule out 33, 44, 55

2. price to call - here's it's less because it was a 3-bet multi-way pot, and the villain's re-raise was so small

3. fold equity - hmmm ... this one confuses me because ... okay, it'd be 0EV to have a shove be called by overpairs to the board, and it'd be +EV to have shove met with a fold by overpairs. But it'd be -EV to have villains calling with sets, which all villains would do.

Maybe if for some reason you could rule out 33, 44, 55 from the villain's range, and knew that the villain would fold most overpairs to the board to a shove, THEN a shove would be a plus?

Here though it seems like versus the villain's range including sets AKs was maybe more like 40/60, but was getting sufficient price to get the $ in for this to be EV neutral in the long-run because of all the $ already in the pot. Which would make it okay to shove or fold I guess


Not sure about a call though - what do people think of a call?


Gosh, it was so crazy at the mall ...


PS Oh, looks like Arty and I posted at the same time
having trouble of tracking u down, cuz u play only zoom tables
 

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