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16nl HU - Standard 3b/5b shove range?

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16nl HU - Standard 3b/5b shove range? - Mon Dec 23, 2013, 02:11 AM
(#1)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Stats - VPIP: 33, PFR: 25, 3B: 6, AF: 7.0, Hands: 88



Just wondering what range we should be getting in against an unknown reg at this stack depth?
 
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Mon Dec 23, 2013, 09:08 AM
(#2)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
What about his 4 bet stats? I don't like 3 betting 16nl reg IP with TT and having questions about his 4 bet hand range . If his F3B stat is high I like it less. I don't mind getting it in with QQ+ and AK. lets assume he will 4 bet half of his 3 bet range ,It's 99+,AKs , You have to hope he has AK
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 65.554% 63.98% 01.57% 230064276 5655738.00 { 99+, AKs }
Hand 1: 34.446% 32.87% 01.57% 118208088 5655738.00 { TT }
I don't like shoving there.

Last edited by Shichi-77; Mon Dec 23, 2013 at 09:11 AM..
 
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Mon Dec 23, 2013, 09:30 AM
(#3)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
HU OOP i guess its OK to be rererererereraising like dis,
but i know wut u did there
wut did he showed? did he call ur push? did u won?
 
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Mon Dec 23, 2013, 09:36 AM
(#4)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Since we are 5b shoving we can have a wider range than the 4better because we have fold equity.

From the HU theory i've studied it's generally accepted that default stack off ranges assuming 100bb are AQ+/99+ which when we combine with fold equity would make it profitable to GII with TT?
 
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Mon Dec 23, 2013, 10:13 AM
(#5)
TommyGun369's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 340
Against an unknown I would say shoving TT here is absolutely standard. I do that even in 6max against someone who I know has a decent 4b bluffing range. You can actually exploit anyone who 4b folds more than 45% by shoving any pocket pair. I know it sounds like a very big number but if someone is only willing to stack off AA,KK,QQ and AK which is only 2.6% of all hands it is super easy for them to get out of line and be 4b bluffing with frequencies that are far from optimal
 
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Mon Dec 23, 2013, 11:19 AM
(#6)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
Since we are 5b shoving we can have a wider range than the 4better because we have fold equity.

From the HU theory i've studied it's generally accepted that default stack off ranges assuming 100bb are AQ+/99+ which when we combine with fold equity would make it profitable to GII with TT?
You have to know that he knows this theory , I don't think that a guy with just 6% 3bet range will 4bet with an AQ and hands that he doesn't want to shove
 
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Mon Dec 23, 2013, 11:48 AM
(#7)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Those stats mean absolutely nothing, unless those numbers are for HU ONLY. If it's a mix of 6-max or less players, what are the true numbers for this HU?

Personally, if I'm HU, it's an automatic All-in. You can guess till you're blue in the face, all you're doing is guessing. The only cards you're losing at is JJ, QQ, KK and AA, even if he's got AK, you're favorite.

HU is a high variance of gambling, so are you a gambler? can your BR take a hit?

I would of played the same (without a HUD....LOL)
 
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Mon Dec 23, 2013, 11:55 AM
(#8)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
I mainly play Zoom ring games so never experience heads up cash games.

However in a tourney I'm always happy to stack off HU.

Then again in a tourney you're never HU for 100BB...
 
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Mon Dec 23, 2013, 07:02 PM
(#9)
PSO-xflixx's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,119
(Live Trainer)
HU without any reads or history I think I would go with TT+, AK and add AQ or lower pairs as soon as the preflop dynamics become more aggressive. If I am not willing to 3Bet/5Bet a hand HU against an unknown I would definitely prefer to flat. NH!


Live Trainer



 
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Mon Dec 23, 2013, 07:24 PM
(#10)
CannonLee's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
Those stats mean absolutely nothing, unless those numbers are for HU ONLY. If it's a mix of 6-max or less players, what are the true numbers for this HU?

Personally, if I'm HU, it's an automatic All-in. You can guess till you're blue in the face, all you're doing is guessing. The only cards you're losing at is JJ, QQ, KK and AA, even if he's got AK, you're favorite.

HU is a high variance of gambling, so are you a gambler? can your BR take a hit?

I would of played the same (without a HUD....LOL)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSO-xflixx View Post
HU without any reads or history I think I would go with TT+, AK and add AQ or lower pairs as soon as the preflop dynamics become more aggressive. If I am not willing to 3Bet/5Bet a hand HU against an unknown I would definitely prefer to flat. NH!
Hi birday,

I agree with all of Sandtraps and xflixx post. Those stats could be really inaccurate, especially for true heads up numbers...it has to be a mixture of 6Max, short handed etc..

With reads or none at all, there are just so many combos of hands that we are ahead of. I'm definitely coming over the top for a raise, whether it be all in to close the action or if we re-open the action for $5 more this allows space for the villain to spazz by flatting or coming over the top with blockers to some of our premium holdings Ax AK AQ AJ AT KQs - 16 combos of each hand, as well 99 88. Each line has its own merit and is ultimately dependent on the villains dynamic and/or tendencies. When you see tables break or the table is started and it's just mano a mano (HU4ROLOLZ), you'll often encounter players deviating from their usual style of play, basically they're adjusting their approach to a different format. For instance someone that has these stats at a full table 33/25/6 might play 59/47/18 heads up... so it would be safe to say that the huge gap between the two styles may suggest that the villains 3bet/4bet/stacking off range will be much looser.


To answer your initial question, TT+ AJ+ would be the standard. Although when you have developed your poker schemata and have an adequate HU hand sample/history on the villain, you can definitely start to expand your 4bet/5bet range and get more creative on stacks depths 100bb+.

Prime example of having reads and 4bet/5bet wars with a range that includes two napkins.

When Ivey makes a play like that, he gets all the praise.


But when I make hero plays/calls that seem spazzy, I'm called a donk or a spew monkey.






Happy holidays everyone,
CannonLee



Quintuple Bracelet Winner


Last edited by CannonLee; Mon Dec 23, 2013 at 07:56 PM..
 
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Mon Dec 23, 2013, 10:30 PM
(#11)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Thanks for all the in depth analysis guys!

HU Cash really is a fun variant when it isn't plagued by bumhunters!

I agree the stats probably don't have much weight since they are mainly from shorthanded play, but I figured it's probably better than nothing.

Nice to see Cannon making an appearance when his HU wizardry is called for.
 
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Tue Dec 24, 2013, 01:05 AM
(#12)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Ivey does earn his praise though...



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Check out my Videos

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Tue Dec 24, 2013, 03:36 AM
(#13)
CannonLee's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,418
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Ivey does earn his praise though...
A few mil a year is all ... peanuts. Splashing around a few luxury cars and huge house for just a pre-flop raise.



Quintuple Bracelet Winner


Last edited by CannonLee; Tue Dec 24, 2013 at 03:39 AM..
 
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Tue Dec 24, 2013, 05:22 AM
(#14)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonLee View Post
A few mil a year is all ... peanuts. Splashing around a few luxury cars and huge house for just a pre-flop raise.
who is phil ivey? bring him to my table
 

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