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10NL zoom shot

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10NL zoom shot - Mon Dec 23, 2013, 01:35 PM
(#1)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
though i shouldnt be taking shots at 10NL i did and did some profit lol
wut u think about this hand? actualy i put him exactly on missed
 
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Mon Dec 23, 2013, 01:40 PM
(#2)
MrFlopes's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 152
I think if you are on a shot you shouldn't be playing a hand like KJo from UTG. As played, i would fold the turn, maybe even the flop. You just got lucky that this guy was late to work.
 
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Mon Dec 23, 2013, 09:26 PM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Hi Naturo,

Without any reads and just taking a shot, I think you'd do ok to fold preflop from UTG with KJo.

As played I don't think our hand is strong enough to be calling a river shove. He pretty much has the lone Ah or a better made hand, and there are more better made hands than AhX out there. 55, 77, AK (which may not 3b pre vs. an UTG open), KQ, even QhQ is possible. Putting an opponent on the 1 single hand you can beat to justify stacking off is a very costly mistake that will usually not have this good an ending. Be sure to range them fairly throughout the hand.


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Tue Dec 24, 2013, 04:22 AM
(#4)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi Naturo,

Without any reads and just taking a shot, I think you'd do ok to fold preflop from UTG with KJo.

As played I don't think our hand is strong enough to be calling a river shove. He pretty much has the lone Ah or a better made hand, and there are more better made hands than AhX out there. 55, 77, AK (which may not 3b pre vs. an UTG open), KQ, even QhQ is possible. Putting an opponent on the 1 single hand you can beat to justify stacking off is a very costly mistake that will usually not have this good an ending. Be sure to range them fairly throughout the hand.
but this is not def worst call of mine... had only 70BB not 100 ... not like my 250BB spew with KK..

its just... how else can i get money... i get KK i lose, i get trips with A-kicker i lose, i get anything i lose..
how am i supossed to win if they keep hitting 4outers to "nuts" on me in every single hand
 
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Tue Dec 24, 2013, 05:32 AM
(#5)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
You get money by not playing marginal hands. You get money by betting when you have the nuts, betting the nuts aggressively, and by folding when you have a strong but possibly second best hand unless the price is cheap enough. Even then it can often make sense to fold.

A lot of these hands that you are dominating the analysis forum with are hands where you are playing absolute junk from OOP, you hit something, then get carried away with it.

J7s is not the nuts, especially OOP, but you treated it as such when you flopped top and bottom pair in another thread. It's not even the best two pair. You asked if you made a tight fold when someone overbet shoved and you had J7 on a JKKTA (I think) board.

Birdayy said it in one of the many other threads, you need to learn relative hand strength. When you are likely to have the best hand and someone can call with worse, bet. When you have air but your opponent is tight and also likely missed, try a bluff but get away from it when you meet resistance. When you have a good hand, but your opponent is telling you they have a better one, get away from it unless you know they are full of it.

In yet another different thread you said you were down 14BI, though you seem to have actually moved up in stakes, and it's not a surprise when you play such random hands that you seemingly don't know what to do with.
 
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Tue Dec 24, 2013, 06:18 AM
(#6)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
You get money by not playing marginal hands. You get money by betting when you have the nuts, betting the nuts aggressively, and by folding when you have a strong but possibly second best hand unless the price is cheap enough. Even then it can often make sense to fold.

A lot of these hands that you are dominating the analysis forum with are hands where you are playing absolute junk from OOP, you hit something, then get carried away with it.

J7s is not the nuts, especially OOP, but you treated it as such when you flopped top and bottom pair in another thread. It's not even the best two pair. You asked if you made a tight fold when someone overbet shoved and you had J7 on a JKKTA (I think) board.

Birdayy said it in one of the many other threads, you need to learn relative hand strength. When you are likely to have the best hand and someone can call with worse, bet. When you have air but your opponent is tight and also likely missed, try a bluff but get away from it when you meet resistance. When you have a good hand, but your opponent is telling you they have a better one, get away from it unless you know they are full of it.

In yet another different thread you said you were down 14BI, though you seem to have actually moved up in stakes, and it's not a surprise when you play such random hands that you seemingly don't know what to do with.
so can u link me to such relative strength article so i can learn?

yes i was down 14BI and i did move up in stackes lol from 5NL to 10NL :X
i did plan to return to 5NL if i lose stack or two, but since i went to 10NL(2 days ago) im either breaking even or turnin some profit so im staying here for now lulz :P

i need 730VPP till end of year(for 50$ stellar reward) so i figured out i either need to play a lot of 4tables zoom 5NL every day or try to take shot at 10NL 2tables zoom(which is going good for now )

Last edited by NaturoSasuki; Tue Dec 24, 2013 at 06:25 AM..
 
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Tue Dec 24, 2013, 06:46 AM
(#7)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Andrew Brokos, PS Pro, wrote this:

It's an opening concept, about one aspect of relative hand strength, I'm not at home but can easily search for more, as can you by sticking 'relative hand strength in poker'.

The “Ranking of Poker Hands” included in every new deck of Bicycle playing cards ought to come with a warning: Rankings valid only at showdown. Quite a few players, knowingly or not, tend to make flop and turn decisions based on these rankings.

This goes hand-in-hand with the tendency to think about a hand as either “drawing” or “made”. It is important to realize that “drawing” and “made” actually have meaning only relative to an opponent’s hand. Whoever has the best hand is “made”, even if his hand is only K-high, and whoever has the worst hand is “drawing”, even if he has trips.

Thinking in these terms can be a costly mistake, as in many cases a draw is actually far more valuable than a made hand. The truly important factor in an early street decision is equity versus an opponent’s range. This article will help you learn to value the relative strength of a hand, based on the equity it has versus an opponent’s range and it’s potential to win money on future streets, rather than its absolute strength, or where it falls on the “Ranking of Poker Hands” chart.

Example One
Consider this example: a tight, predictable player raises from first position at a ten-handed no-limit hold ‘em (NLHE) table. You put him on KQs, AJs+, AQo+, 77+. The other players fold, and you call his raise on your big blind. The two of you see a 6 [club] 6 [spade] 8 [spade] flop. You check, and your opponent bets the pot, which you believe he would do with his entire range. You need 33.3% equity to call a pot-sized bet. What do you do if you are holding AK? What about 22?

Many players would either call with both hands, or fold the AK but call with 22. The correct answer is to call with AK and fold 22. (Depending on your opponent, the correct answer could also be to raise, but we’re going to ignore that for the sake of this example.)

This might seem surprising, since 22 is a pair and AK is “still drawing”. Remember, though, that those hand rankings only count at showdown. An equity calculator like Poker Stove quickly reveals that AK has 40% equity vs. your opponent’s range, while 22 has 32%. This is because your 22 is either very slightly ahead of two overcards, which have nine outs, or drawing to only two outs against a better pair. Meanwhile, AK is in great shape against the unpaired portion of our opponent’s range, which is drawing to just 3 outs, and still has 6 outs against the pairs.

Even more important, though more difficult to calculate, is how well each hand will play on future streets. Part of the problem with 22 is that you never know where you stand. Are you calling a bet if a 4 turns? What about if a K turns? Out of position with a hand that has almost no chance of improving, it will be very difficult to outplay your opponent on future streets.

AK will still face some tough decisions, but it also stands to make some money on certain cards. If a K turns, your opponent might try to bluff at it with AQ or AJ. Or, he might check behind with something like 99 and then call a river bet. If an A turns, you’ll win one or two big bets from those same hands, and might induce a bluff from KQ. Your 22, on the other hand, would hate to see any of those cards.

Three Lessons
You won’t always be able to calculate your equity with such precision, but there are three key points to take away from this example that will help you with real-time decision-making. The first is that there is a lot of value in dominating the portion of your opponent’s range that is “drawing”. In this example, AK is actually beating the exact same portion of your opponent’s range that 22 is beating, but AK is beating it by a lot more. Hands like AQ have three outs vs. the AK but nine outs vs. the 22.

The second point is that having outs vs. the “made” portion of your opponent’s range is important. Here, AK has six outs vs. a pair while 22 has only two.

The third point is that, when there’s money behind, you want to have good implied odds on later streets. A hand like 22 will almost never improve, never be able to bet for value, and never know what to do when facing bets on future streets.

Example Two
Let’s take a look at another example that illustrates the first two points more dramatically. You are playing a $5/$10 NLHE game with $2000 in front of you. You open from one off the button with a $40 raise, the Button calls, and the blinds fold. With $95 in the pot, you see a flop of 4 [heart] 7 [heart] T [club]. You make a $95 pot-sized bet, and your opponent raises to $400. You know him to be a tight but tricky player and believe that his range consists of sets, monster draws (ie 5 [heart] 6 [heart] and 8 [heart] 9 [heart]), and about 25% random bluffs. Being out of position, you decide that you will either move all in or fold. Assuming he will fold his bluffs and call with everything else, which hand would you rather have: pocket Aces, a set of 4′s, or A [heart] 2 [heart] for the nut flush draw?

We can rule the Aces out quickly, since they are clearly weaker than the set, right? Well, yes, but in actuality they are almost exactly the same hand. If you calculate your equity vs. Villain’s calling range, you’ll see that 44 has 18% equity and AA has 17% equity.

Yet, if you held 44, your first instinct would probably be to get excited about the the raise. After all, you have the third nuts! Realize, though, that when your all-in bet is called, you lose $806 ((0.82 * -$1865) + (.18 * 4015)) in Expected Value (EV). This happens 75% of the time. The other 25% of the time, your opponent folds and you win about $600. Overall, moving all in here will lose you about $450 in EV, even though you have the third nuts! (Actually, you will win without showdown slightly more often than this, since having 44 in your hand eliminates from your opponent’s range three of the hands that can call your shove, but this is not enough to turn shoving into a winning play).

The nut flush draw actually gives you the best value on your shove, as it has about 31% equity when called. Thus, the EV of moving all in with A [heart] 2 [heart] is .75((.69 * -1865) + (.31 * 4015)) + .25 (590) ~ $116, meaning that shoving with the nut flush draw will win you a little over $100.

Taking It to the Table
Why is this happening? How can you recognize similar situations at the table when you don’t have an equity calculator available to you? The thing to think about is not how strong your hand is in an absolute sense but rather how it fares relative to your opponent’s calling range. In this case, a set of 4′s is either very slightly ahead of a monster draw or way behind a better set. The nut flush draw, on the other hand, is slightly ahead of your opponent’s draws and slightly behind his sets. Even without doing any math, recognizing this much is enough to see that the flush draw will fare better when called than will the set.

Conclusion
It takes some practice to change your mental habits. At first, you may feel silly risking all of your money with “just a draw” in a situation where you would fold a far more highly ranked hand. Less knowledgeable players may even berate you. But disciplining yourself always to think first about equity rather than absolute hand strength will let you get the last laugh while your opponents keep complaining about a “cold deck”.

This article was previously published in the Two Plus Two Magazine.

Last edited by bhoylegend; Tue Dec 24, 2013 at 06:51 AM..
 
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Tue Dec 24, 2013, 07:10 AM
(#8)
MrFlopes's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 152
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaturoSasuki View Post
i need 730VPP till end of year(for 50$ stellar reward) so i figured out i either need to play a lot of 4tables zoom 5NL every day or try to take shot at 10NL 2tables zoom(which is going good for now )
Naturo, you don't need 730VPPs. You need to start playing solid poker, and if that means playing lower stakes, so be it. Forget FPPs. If you have the bankroll for higher stakes it's fine, but play it because the competition is good for your learning process and don't focus on FPPs.
 
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Tue Dec 24, 2013, 07:44 AM
(#9)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFlopes View Post
Naturo, you don't need 730VPPs. You need to start playing solid poker, and if that means playing lower stakes, so be it. Forget FPPs. If you have the bankroll for higher stakes it's fine, but play it because the competition is good for your learning process and don't focus on FPPs.
thanks for article BHOY , would like to read moar of dat , looks interesting , but would u really fold those 44 or just call or wut?

focusing on VPPs not FPPs...

it wont be a super big problem to get those 730VPPs till end of year at 5NL anyway
so im getting it anyway cuz i was getting 10$ 10$ 10$ 10$ 10$ for 750 VPPs but now i can finally get 50$ for just 1000VPPs, and after that (another 50$ is for 5000VPP so i will stop after i reach first 50$)
so i set this as my goal so i will earn those VPPs no matter wut u say lulz

Last edited by NaturoSasuki; Tue Dec 24, 2013 at 08:08 AM..
 
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Tue Dec 24, 2013, 09:06 AM
(#10)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaturoSasuki View Post
so i set this as my goal so i will earn those VPPs no matter wut u say lulz
Naturo, Why do you post when you seldom heed the advice offered? How much longer before your posts go unanswered as people see a response is futile?
 
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Wake up and become a good player - Tue Dec 24, 2013, 09:37 AM
(#11)
WickedWie's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1
Hi,

Reading your thread it seems like you got a lot of excuses to do things wrong.
If you want to learn good poker. Teach yourself discipline, read, watch and be honest with yourself.

Get a book like Easy Game or Math of Holdem. Even better, get both
Read, play, study your game
Read, play, study your game
Read, play, study your game
Read, play, study your game
Read, play, study your game
Read, play, study your game
etc etc etc

If you were a good player and you recognise good condition you could play KJo sometimes UTG.
When you're starting out stay with solid hand ranges. People at $10NL don't really notice ranges especially at ZOOM.

Where your money comes from?
Well, people who overplay KJo UTG :P
Your range is no match for his taking that line, just fold and save yourself some money.
You didn't put him on Ah, you hoped he had Ah and he did. Think about all the hands he could have and how do you do against those hands??
 
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Tue Dec 24, 2013, 10:13 AM
(#12)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaturoSasuki View Post
but now i can finally get 50$ for just 1000VPPs
This is pointless if you lose 10 Buy-ins ($100) in the process particularly if your bankroll can't afford it.
 
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Tue Dec 24, 2013, 11:30 AM
(#13)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by spand42 View Post
This is pointless if you lose 10 Buy-ins ($100) in the process particularly if your bankroll can't afford it.
u did read carelessly i wouldnt lose 10BI of 10NL...

to make it clear and with numbers:
i played 5NL , had 190$ had dowswingz , final BR was 130$
then i decided (based on needing a lot VPPs + one buyin=10$ wont hurt me since it is like losing 2 stacks at 5NL so i had previously 12BI dowswing so i dont mind losing 2BI=10$ at 10NL lol)... to take shot at 10NL and if i move below 120$ i would return to my regular 5NL.... (my BR management is 20+ BI for stake)

since then i didnt went below 120$ at 10NL so im staying there lol...my BR is now 160$ but i play for stacks often so it goes up and down up and down often :p
 
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Tue Dec 24, 2013, 11:32 AM
(#14)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe View Post
Naturo, Why do you post when you seldom heed the advice offered? How much longer before your posts go unanswered as people see a response is futile?
dats a bit offensive and conceited from u to say that... (idk if conceited is right word, usin google translator lulz )
i wanted hand analyses , not to analyze my BR
edit: and i do like most of the advices i get, though some i dont, but thats natural

Last edited by NaturoSasuki; Tue Dec 24, 2013 at 11:35 AM..
 
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Tue Dec 24, 2013, 02:22 PM
(#15)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaturoSasuki View Post
so can u link me to such relative strength article so i can learn?
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/blo...-hand-strength

FWIW, my whole ABC series should help you fix some of your most glaring leaks. While you're still learning the game, and playing microstakes, you shouldn't be doing anything fancy. Just play an ABC style, building pots with strong hands and folding weak ones.


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Tue Dec 24, 2013, 07:11 PM
(#16)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaturoSasuki View Post
dats a bit offensive and conceited from u to say that... (idk if conceited is right word, usin google translator lulz )
i wanted hand analyses , not to analyze my BR
edit: and i do like most of the advices i get, though some i dont, but thats natural
I see I got your attention. Good!

Lack of proper bankroll management has haunted a number of pro poker players. No matter how skilled you are at the table poor bankroll management will make the difference between being a profitable player or not.

The longer you practice poorly the harder it will be to correct down the road.
 
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Wed Dec 25, 2013, 02:36 AM
(#17)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe View Post
I see I got your attention. Good!

Lack of proper bankroll management has haunted a number of pro poker players. No matter how skilled you are at the table poor bankroll management will make the difference between being a profitable player or not.

The longer you practice poorly the harder it will be to correct down the road.
i know , i know, but one BI of higher NL wont hurt!
even flixx done that in his grindinitup challenge, and he profited exactly like me...
 
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Wed Dec 25, 2013, 11:28 AM
(#18)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
That's a really interesting article bhoylegend - thanks for posting!!
 

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