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let me get value from dis, sir

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let me get value from dis, sir - Wed Dec 25, 2013, 04:04 PM
(#1)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
*feeling bossy* finally i am at the other hand of KK hand , is his call OTT suicidal? like BHOY would say, now his KK iz as stronk as 32o ?
 
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Wed Dec 25, 2013, 04:37 PM
(#2)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I didn't say anything about KK being as good as 32o, that was birdayy, though his point about relative hand strength is something I agree with.

On the flush turn card, villain either doesn't believe you or isn't paying attention, against a turned flush he is drawing dead and his hand is as good as 32o. He should fold turn to your shove but I rarely find the sense to do it so can't criticise him too much. Though on this depth of money, maybe I would.

I don't hate the pre and flop play because we are deep and he seems likely to pay off if we hit. Maybe not optimal though cause of the big 3bet.
 
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Thu Dec 26, 2013, 08:33 AM
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spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Preflop I'd probably fold to the really large 3Bet that V3 makes, but I think calling is also fine as you're both 150BB deep.

You played it very well postflop. I think the turn is a clear bet/fold for the villain, calling your shove is a really costly play as you're almost never shoving there with worse than KK. I doubt you would play AQ like this, you would just call turn and see river.

The Beluga Theorem is a very reliable theorem!
 
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Thu Dec 26, 2013, 09:17 AM
(#4)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by spand42 View Post
Preflop I'd probably fold to the really large 3Bet that V3 makes, but I think calling is also fine as you're both 150BB deep.

You played it very well postflop. I think the turn is a clear bet/fold for the villain, calling your shove is a really costly play as you're almost never shoving there with worse than KK. I doubt you would play AQ like this, you would just call turn and see river.

The Beluga Theorem is a very reliable theorem!
i pushed turn mainly because to get value from KK with or AA with and to also get value from any other worse hands like QQ's AQ AJ, or AQ/AJ with ... if he had one of these hands, would it be profitably for him to bet-call shove , or check-call OTT & fold OTR if miss?
 
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Thu Dec 26, 2013, 09:41 AM
(#5)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaturoSasuki View Post
i pushed turn mainly because to get value from KK with or AA with and to also get value from any other worse hands like QQ's AQ AJ, or AQ/AJ with ... if he had one of these hands, would it be profitably for him to bet-call shove , or check-call OTT & fold OTR if miss?
You've raised some extremely interesting points here.

I think you're spot on with what value hands you are trying to target.

Let's give villain AhQ and analyse it from his point of view. You've raised UTG and called a really large 3Bet, so you have likely got a pretty tight range (which certainly doesn't include 89s . He bets big again OTF and you call. You can't have the nut flush draw and you almost certainly don't have KK or AA. Therefore you're on a Kh or lower flush draw, a straight draw, a worse Qx or set. A hand like KJhh or KhQ makes sense (although I'm not sure you'd play these hands like this preflop). However villain might expect you to raise your sets or QT to protect against the flush.,

The dreaded heart comes and he continues to bet and you shove. I have personally made this shove with a set with pretty much this exact line before where I chose to slowplay the flop and then was kicking myself when the flush came so I just tilt-shoved and hoped he'd fold. He might expect you are doing the same thing.

However even if you are ONLY shoving with sets, two pair and KhJx and never have a flush, then he is only 32% when he needs 31.4% equity to call, so it's very borderline. However just putting one flush combo (say 9h8h) into his range tips it below 31%.

Therefore if I was villain I think I'd check/call and hope to spike a four-card flush
 
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Thu Dec 26, 2013, 10:38 AM
(#6)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by spand42 View Post
You've raised some extremely interesting points here.

I think you're spot on with what value hands you are trying to target.

Let's give villain AhQ and analyse it from his point of view. You've raised UTG and called a really large 3Bet, so you have likely got a pretty tight range (which certainly doesn't include 89s . He bets big again OTF and you call. You can't have the nut flush draw and you almost certainly don't have KK or AA. Therefore you're on a Kh or lower flush draw, a straight draw, a worse Qx or set. A hand like KJhh or KhQ makes sense (although I'm not sure you'd play these hands like this preflop). However villain might expect you to raise your sets or QT to protect against the flush.,

The dreaded heart comes and he continues to bet and you shove. I have personally made this shove with a set with pretty much this exact line before where I chose to slowplay the flop and then was kicking myself when the flush came so I just tilt-shoved and hoped he'd fold. He might expect you are doing the same thing.

However even if you are ONLY shoving with sets, two pair and KhJx and never have a flush, then he is only 32% when he needs 31.4% equity to call, so it's very borderline. However just putting one flush combo (say 9h8h) into his range tips it below 31%.

Therefore if I was villain I think I'd check/call and hope to spike a four-card flush
and if u spike ur 4th heart,given that u r OOP , would u x-raise / jam/ medium bet?
 

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