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set vs set , foldable?

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set vs set , foldable? - Thu Dec 26, 2013, 05:09 PM
(#1)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
regular deepstack table, though no info on villain
would u fold this? bad played by me?
 
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Thu Dec 26, 2013, 10:28 PM
(#2)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi NaturoSasuki,

Very interesting. This happens a lot now in the micros, IMO the leading out (donk) into the original raiser with a relative hand strength far better than the raiser expects. They think maybe a weak 1 pair hand or an information bet and you are so happy now with the flop raise?

So it's levelling if your opponent knows what you are thinking and has a better hand? Now consider the pre-flop action: strong 4x open, over call and you call oop in the sb, then lead out?

Is the board going to allow you to draw out on something that already beats you? I've seen Vanessa Selbst and Lex Veldhuis lead out strong hands in this way. But they are the pros and I can only think they do so because they see some back door equity that their opponent can call - we are not being raised by worse?

I'll stop talking now. That sounds a load of rubbish but I've seen opponents lead into me with monsters in the micros, so I'm probably over thinking what it going on.

Last edited by ForrestFive; Thu Dec 26, 2013 at 10:41 PM.. Reason: flop raise by worse
 
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Fri Dec 27, 2013, 01:21 AM
(#3)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForrestFive View Post
Hi NaturoSasuki,

Very interesting. This happens a lot now in the micros, IMO the leading out (donk) into the original raiser with a relative hand strength far better than the raiser expects. They think maybe a weak 1 pair hand or an information bet and you are so happy now with the flop raise?

So it's levelling if your opponent knows what you are thinking and has a better hand? Now consider the pre-flop action: strong 4x open, over call and you call oop in the sb, then lead out?

Is the board going to allow you to draw out on something that already beats you? I've seen Vanessa Selbst and Lex Veldhuis lead out strong hands in this way. But they are the pros and I can only think they do so because they see some back door equity that their opponent can call - we are not being raised by worse?

I'll stop talking now. That sounds a load of rubbish but I've seen opponents lead into me with monsters in the micros, so I'm probably over thinking what it going on.
the thing is, if i put him on higher set, im dead, and can only fold.. no reason to bet-fold this, that will be a little spewy...
u can get action from a lot of good-looking hands here like QQ,KK,AK,AQ,FDs and other not so good-looking like 88 ...and im dead to KQ,JJ,TT.... so quite foldable when so many blinds still behind.... but idk if bottom set is good to stack off deep on flop :S , definitely i dont want to see turn/river as many of cards could crush me
, so i want to get it in on flop

Last edited by NaturoSasuki; Fri Dec 27, 2013 at 01:49 AM..
 
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Fri Dec 27, 2013, 12:06 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Hi,

Quote:
This happens a lot now in the micros, IMO the leading out (donk) into the original raiser with a relative hand strength far better than the raiser expects. They think maybe a weak 1 pair hand or an information bet and you are so happy now with the flop raise?
Quote:
u can get action from a lot of good-looking hands here like QQ,KK,AK,AQ,FDs and other not so good-looking like 88
Remember though it's not the PFR that is raising our lead bet, he folded to it... it's the cold caller. This is highly relevant because his range is different from the PFR's. Even though no reads were given (again), this flop smashes the parts of his range that are willing to raise our lead bet. QQ-AA are not generally a part of this range since he didn't 3b pre. JJ, TT, KQ, maybe 78s are all in this range. About the only hand we're beating here in his range are 2 pairs, so JTs (Js9s is possible, T9s is not).

Folding to this raise makes sense. The other option is to call, see what the turn brings and how he responds. If he's semi-bluffing a draw he's likely to slow down once called, or if he has a worse hand, same thing. If he bombs the turn, we can feel pretty safe about folding then unimproved.

Shoving all in isn't good here imo, because we will only get called by better hands and maybe some JT combos, our relative hand strength on this board texture and this action sequence is not really too great.


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Fri Dec 27, 2013, 12:35 PM
(#5)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi,





Remember though it's not the PFR that is raising our lead bet, he folded to it... it's the cold caller. This is highly relevant because his range is different from the PFR's. Even though no reads were given (again), this flop smashes the parts of his range that are willing to raise our lead bet. QQ-AA are not generally a part of this range since he didn't 3b pre. JJ, TT, KQ, maybe 78s are all in this range. About the only hand we're beating here in his range are 2 pairs, so JTs (Js9s is possible, T9s is not).

Folding to this raise makes sense. The other option is to call, see what the turn brings and how he responds. If he's semi-bluffing a draw he's likely to slow down once called, or if he has a worse hand, same thing. If he bombs the turn, we can feel pretty safe about folding then unimproved.

Shoving all in isn't good here imo, because we will only get called by better hands and maybe some JT combos, our relative hand strength on this board texture and this action sequence is not really too great.
and u just call that raise and OTT comes J / T ... wut u doing now? will u be happy dat u got boat and stack it and he will show JT or J9 for better fullhouse and u will be like why i not put it in OTF
or which turn cards u will continue on and which not?!
 

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