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10nl 6m zoom - QJo utg, flopped TP on a single-suit board with no flush draw

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10nl 6m zoom - QJo utg, flopped TP on a single-suit board with no flush draw - Sat Dec 28, 2013, 02:57 PM
(#1)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Hey everybody,


So I opened QJo utg and flopped TP, c-bet and got re-raised, then folded. Figured the villain must have had in the very least a better kicker, and possibly even a flush draw?


Some people might find an open of QJo utg a little loose - just ran a filter on my database and it's been breakeven for me, so I can understand why people might feel that way. Guess it could go either way


In any case, as played, was just wondering what sort of range of hands we should be continuing with on the flop? AhQx for sure, but what about KhQx? AxQx non-heart? AhKx?


Here were the villain's HUD stats:



Checked the lobby for any possible additional info, and the villain was a 2-tabler from Jersey. Is that an island in the English Channel, or is that another island I'm thinking of? Anyways, that's all I had to go by - not much





Thanks for the help everybody

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Dec 28, 2013 at 03:10 PM..
 
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Sat Dec 28, 2013, 03:50 PM
(#2)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
u openin QJ and hits TP on a safe board if u disregard flush... u went to flop 2way... so u have best hand most of the time and he can reraise with nut flush draw or bluffin there since he can rep flush.... he definitely doesnt have KQ/AQ since he just called preflop(but can haz sometime..)

if u openin QJ , wut kind of flop do u want? i would want exactly dis one..
i would either reraise back or probably better would be to just call his raise and see if the turn comes safe(no 4th heart), basically he can do reraising even with
 
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Sat Dec 28, 2013, 05:43 PM
(#3)
rkleefstra's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,328
easy fold. At best you have kicker problems, imo
 
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Sat Dec 28, 2013, 08:09 PM
(#4)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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An interesting contrast of opinions already


Your ideas reminded me of a couple of other hands of mine ... guess I'll wait for the help to be posted first, so the analyzer doesn't get confused if I post other hands and start talking about other spots


Thanks for the feedback NS and rk!!
 
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Sat Dec 28, 2013, 11:07 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,496
(Head Trainer)
Hi Sam,

I agree this is a fold. We are at the very bottom of our flop value betting range (and this is a thin bet imo), and getting raised... we are behind his entire value raising range (often crushed with extremely low equity), and not far ahead of his semi-bluffing range. And I can't think of a single hand that this raise makes any sense that we're crushing. Against AhTd we are only 55-45. Against 8h8x (which I don't think he's raising with on the flop) we're only 57-43. And I think those are the best case scenarios. It will be difficult to realize this equity advantage however being out of position and having a hand strength that can't take much heat + has little chance to improve, while several cards devalue our hand further.

We would realize it if we were all in, but reraising is horrific because when we're right we're only slightly right, and when we're wrong it exposes us to all the horrific equity scenarios against hands like 77 (4%), AhTh (3%), and AhQs (7%).

As to what we should continue with, any hand that can take some heat and not be in such a poor equity share vs. his flop raising range. AQ+ probably for non flush draw hands, Kh/Ah holdings.


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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 12:25 AM
(#6)
Marc Rae's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 505
Hi Dave, I understand where the points re: villain's perceived equity holdings / reraising range.

However, why play JQo UTG and CB with TPGK only to fold on the flop to a raise? (More rhetoric, as I don't know if the OP folds to TPGK to a flop reraise, 100% of the time).

As villain, I would balance premiums by calling vs 3betting, then occasionally reraise the flop IP, but I also would balance this by reraising with air with my non-premium calling range; Partiularly, if flopCbet% is "high".

As Hero, wouldn't you want to (sometimes) balance this by peeling 1 more card? even with non AQ+, AhKh holdings. (By saying this, I don't mean you call reraises OOP every time).

I guess my line of questioning maybe skewed / relevant towards non-3flush flops.
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 12:44 AM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,496
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
However, why play JQo UTG and CB with TPGK only to fold on the flop to a raise? (More rhetoric, as I don't know if the OP folds to TPGK to a flop reraise, 100% of the time).
I'm not a fan of opening pre, and c-betting this flop. And we don't have a good kicker when we get raised in this situation, our kicker is pretty much garbage tbh. We're not folding TPGK 100% of the time (I said I'd generally continue with AQ+).

Quote:
As villain, I would balance premiums by calling vs 3betting, then occasionally reraise the flop IP, but I also would balance this by reraising with air with my non-premium calling range; Partiularly, if flopCbet% is "high".
Sounds like a reasonable strategy to me. Here we have an unknown who is probably a recreational player (2 tabling and we have no data on them despite being a semi-regular in these stakes, which I think Sam is?). I'm not the least bit concerned that they are balancing their ranges.

Quote:
As Hero, wouldn't you want to (sometimes) balance this by peeling 1 more card? even with non AQ+, AhKh holdings. (By saying this, I don't mean you call reraises OOP every time).
I generally don't worry about balancing until I know I'm against a villain that this is necessary. But this is still a bet/fold or check/call imo, not a bet call, as there's little value to peeling when we mostly don't improve, sometimes get seriously weaker, and can't continue vs. another barrel on neutral cards anyway without reads.


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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 01:03 AM
(#8)
Marc Rae's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 505
Sure, understand all points, Cheers!
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 02:14 AM
(#9)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
but the whole point is opening JQ preflop, though i dont mind it!!!

but LAngolier... u covering it from the nit side only, but if she played nit, she wouldnt raise JQ utg at the first place...
and if u raise JQ utg and betfold on the best flop u could get... then thats (a lot) spewy to me...
(dont mind betfold if missed ofc)

without stats/reads , what most likely in zoom u dont have(or u haz just small stats sample which is unusable anyway)
this is a clearly good option for villain to steal, as every preflop raiser does CB-fold, especially when miss ...
so again u covering it from the NIT side only... u most likely didnt play zoom much (never saw u there) it is very agresive game..

Last edited by NaturoSasuki; Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 02:20 AM..
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 07:37 AM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi Sam,

I agree this is a fold. We are at the very bottom of our flop value betting range (and this is a thin bet imo), and getting raised... we are behind his entire value raising range (often crushed with extremely low equity), and not far ahead of his semi-bluffing range. And I can't think of a single hand that this raise makes any sense that we're crushing. Against AhTd we are only 55-45. Against 8h8x (which I don't think he's raising with on the flop) we're only 57-43. And I think those are the best case scenarios. It will be difficult to realize this equity advantage however being out of position and having a hand strength that can't take much heat + has little chance to improve, while several cards devalue our hand further.

We would realize it if we were all in, but reraising is horrific because when we're right we're only slightly right, and when we're wrong it exposes us to all the horrific equity scenarios against hands like 77 (4%), AhTh (3%), and AhQs (7%).

As to what we should continue with, any hand that can take some heat and not be in such a poor equity share vs. his flop raising range. AQ+ probably for non flush draw hands, Kh/Ah holdings.

ty ty for the detailed analysis Dave - makes a lot of sense, and helps a lot!!
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 08:04 AM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaturoSasuki View Post
if u openin QJ , wut kind of flop do u want? i would want exactly dis one..
i would either reraise back or probably better would be to just call his raise and see if the turn comes safe(no 4th heart), basically he can do reraising even with
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Rae View Post
However, why play JQo UTG and CB with TPGK only to fold on the flop to a raise? (More rhetoric, as I don't know if the OP folds to TPGK to a flop reraise, 100% of the time)

Dave explained my (sort of) thinking on the flop - I just couldn't think of a hand where I was better than 50% ... and there were so many hands that had QJo in bad shape ... possibly even drawing dead. And ya, I was oop. Just wasn't sure how light a hand would have been okay to continue with.


Here's some other hands of mine that are slightly similar, but were different enough for various reasons, such that I wound up taking a different line since you were wondering:

1. KQo TP, oop, 5 hands on villain plus a note

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Had a couple of wild hands from this morning - and gosh, I do sometimes like to gamble ... you think these calls were also +EV in the long-run? :

Hand 2

This hand, gosh ... had a color code and a note on this person saying 'WILD!! CALL WIDE!!', so I went with it ... sample size of 5 hands Usually my notes are way more detailed - guess maybe this hand is a reminder to take better notes, so stacking off with a mediocre holding won't be so much of a gamble?

Villain's HUD stats:




2. AKo k-kicker, in position, 10 hands on villain

Villain's HUD stats:





PS Guess my flop call was okay, with the back door straight draw and back door flush draw. And I called the turn because his double-barrel seemed to lose steam - you think that was a good enough reason to continue ... with A high? Still working on turn play - work in progress!


3. KK overpair, no flush draw, single-suit board

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post

This hand sort of reminds me of a hand of mine versus a reg with an AF in the 4.x range ...

... who had me a bit at a loss for how to range him - like did he have just AA and KK in his pre-flop 4-betting range? Or was there AK too, and maybe even some other stuff? And what about his post-flop 3b-shove range?



Not totally sure if it was the right decision to go all-in on the flop or not, without even the flush draw. But we do have a past history - this is the same player who 3-bet me with 46s:

'TheWitchCat', the wild 4-tabler

So there was that. And there was his high wtsd too:



So there was that too. Still ... not totally sure my call was +EV in the long-run? Feels like versus his range, it was maybe sort of like, right on the line?

Something I'm trying to think more about is how many turn cards help or hurt us ... and since it's still a work in progress, I don't really know how to do that yet haha. But ... it kind of seems like if the villain had something that was worth re-raising the flop with, there'd be a lot of cards he'd likely keep betting the turn with? Not sure ... maybe like, any heart, any A, any K, all bricks? Are there any turn cards that would be good for QJo? Like, if you call the flop, then do you call the turn too? That's what this villain did when the shoe was on the other foot:




Guess it's villain dependant though ... like if there was a read that the villain would re-raise with 72o and no flush draw, then for sure I like a call!

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 08:10 AM..
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 08:26 AM
(#12)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
if u gonna play JQ like this, then fold it preflop and save urself money
other hands:

KQ seems ok if he is CS

AK looks bad to me, OTF good, but i would fold OTT since he do this w/ any pocketpair and u check OTR which is just bad.. even if he do dis with 22 he beats u and u did nothing about it (though he might call u with dat 22 anyway because of the lines u took it would make sense for him to believe u have AK and he haz u crushed )

KK u got unlucky, he will call allin even preflop, but if the board went same, u would lose anyway... though u should have pushed definitely preflop, or raised much bigger... he will call w/ AK anyway

33
nothin to do here , i would push OTF that shortstack, cuz u getting urself in trouble by slowplayin dis

summary: JQ still worst played out of dis 5 handz

Last edited by NaturoSasuki; Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 08:33 AM..
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 08:34 AM
(#13)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Forgot to mention that the filters on my report were wrong, and QJo's been profitable from every position except the bb (because I fold it a lot).

Probably it's been profitable because I know when to ditch it before it gets to be -EV


GL GL to everyone at the tables today!!
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 09:12 AM
(#14)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Forgot to mention that the filters on my report were wrong, and QJo's been profitable from every position except the bb (because I fold it a lot).

Probably it's been profitable because I know when to ditch it before it gets to be -EV


GL GL to everyone at the tables today!!
could u send ur 10NL ZOOM graph? curious wut results u getting with dis play
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 09:15 AM
(#15)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
How many hands of zoom have you played NS - did I read you say in another thread that you're losing 2bi's every sitting?

Here's my December graph - the one that includes the QJo fold. You can just ignore the green one and look at the yellow one if you want. The leak tracker actually says I haven't been running so hot when it comes to sets and straights. And I've had AA and KK cracked several times, so it's not just you.

Click to show hidden text

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 09:20 AM..
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 01:30 PM
(#16)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
as would negreanu say : "wuava wiva"
ur result are far better than i expected GL by GL(gaylooser )
i had lucky up-and-down-winny-suckouty day today but overall a lucky day
heres graph of today


and heres my overall 10NL graph

Last edited by NaturoSasuki; Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 01:41 PM..
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 02:10 PM
(#17)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Far better than you expected - that sounds like a bit of a backhanded compliment ... gee, thanks

Your graph looks really good too GL/NS (never noticed before that GL is also GL ... that's handy ) - now you just have to keep it up, and you'll be rich!! GL GL!! (that's good luck GayLooser )


PS The fish at my Sunday Storm table have already busted, and all that's left are the good players - maybe I should make it one of next year's goals only play stuff that isn't a net negative to my bankroll

Will have to see I guess
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 02:34 PM
(#18)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Far better than you expected - that sounds like a bit of a backhanded compliment ... gee, thanks

Your graph looks really good too GL/NS (never noticed before that GL is also GL ... that's handy ) - now you just have to keep it up, and you'll be rich!! GL GL!! (that's good luck GayLooser )


PS The fish at my Sunday Storm table have already busted, and all that's left are the good players - maybe I should make it one of next year's goals only play stuff that isn't a net negative to my bankroll

Will have to see I guess
what ? u playing some 200$ buyin tourneys? or what did u mean? what negative torunaments u play?

Last edited by NaturoSasuki; Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 02:37 PM..
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 02:35 PM
(#19)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Oh, just meant that I never cash

GL at the tables today GL
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 06:44 PM
(#20)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Oh, just meant that I never cash

GL at the tables today GL
well and wut do u expect if there are 100 000 of players in tourney... dat u will cash every 100th time u play it ? lol
even negreanu wont cash so much
 

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