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50NL FR : J8s BTN play : 2nd pair : Missing value on river?

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50NL FR : J8s BTN play : 2nd pair : Missing value on river? - Sat Dec 28, 2013, 10:25 PM
(#1)
Marc Rae's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 505
Hi

I think being able to extract value from 2nd pair and lower is so important.

So have been trying to spot situations in some hand reviews.


Villain stats (28 hands):
44/11
Donk flop, TOT 50%(4). 100%(2) from SB.
No opportunities seen where villain folds to donk flop 2bet.

Flop:
Generally can 2B here, but with villain donking out most times, wanted to get 1 more bet from the turn.

Turn:
When villain checks back, generally can have a hand if gets to SD. Dont believe he is checking a K here most times.

I bet turn, and this is the first part where I lose value imo... Although I do want to keep under pairs in, and draws to call.

River:
With all draws missing, this is the 2nd part where I feel I miss extracting value.

AND/OR considering villain has played a B-XC-X line, is this a good spot to consider merging my 2nd pair holdings with an amount among TPTK, or 2 pairs, etc? VS betting a smaller amount where I have lower pairs call.





Thanks!
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 03:28 AM
(#2)
frosty012's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 26
Hey again,

Flop call seems good and standard. From what I've experienced, most of these donk leads from fish (different from regs) are total air, maybe hands like Ax, sometimes weak-decent draws or a 1-pair type hand that's just doing a blocking bet. Given that, I think that it's close to a way-ahead way-behind situation (although I guess sometimes the villain will have a J with a better kicker but I don't think they'd donk that hand more than they'd C/call with it) and I'm happy to call and let them keep bluffing.

Turn bet seems good...I know in hindsight it looks like you might have missed some value on the river but in these spots I usually only go for 1 more street of value(either turn or river) because if the villain does c/call the turn, I basically have to remove air from their range and put them on something like bottom pair-a weak king.

So yeah, once we're at the river I just think that it's hard to get called again by worse. I mean, I think that it will happen (ie. I wouldn't be shocked if the villain did call with 99 again) but I also think there will probably be more times where the villain will only call with a better jack or trip kings.

I guess what I'm saying is that I probably wouldn't start merging weak 2nd pair hands here for value on the river (unless I delayed my turn bet until the river because then I think you could get called by a weaker range) because I think that you're not going to get called by worse often enough.
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 06:12 AM
(#3)
Marc Rae's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 505
Appreciate the comments Frosty, thanks for the review.


Quote:
Originally Posted by frosty012 View Post
if the villain does c/call the turn, I basically have to remove air from their range and put them on something like bottom pair-a weak king.
Good point, and I guess it leads onto my next comment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by frosty012 View Post
So yeah, once we're at the river I just think that it's hard to get called again by worse. I mean, I think that it will happen (ie. I wouldn't be shocked if the villain did call with 99 again) but I also think there will probably be more times where the villain will only call with a better jack or trip kings.
You're right.. and I guess this is where extracting value from 2nd here, is specific to villain notes that he has/hasn't done so in the past - which I don't have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frosty012 View Post
I guess what I'm saying is that I probably wouldn't start merging weak 2nd pair hands here for value on the river (unless I delayed my turn bet until the river because then I think you could get called by a weaker range) because I think that you're not going to get called by worse often enough.
Cheers, I didn't think to check back the turn to specifically merge 2nd pair hands on a river bet, as 2 streets of value.

Also, possible in this case... villain betting the river, and me calling a river bet. Double the options to make a mistake.
 

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