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How to play Jacks??

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How to play Jacks?? - Sat Dec 28, 2013, 10:46 PM
(#1)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,284
This hand is at the final table of a Women's .10 tournament. I hadn't been there long, and didn't really have any solid reads on either opponent. I tanked for a while, but don't feel good about my play.



Just wondering what others would do in this situation with these stack sizes.

PS. Most of my chips had been acquired fairly recently, I was the short stack originally.

Last edited by joy7108; Sat Dec 28, 2013 at 10:55 PM.. Reason: ps
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 01:39 AM
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JDean's Avatar
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I do not see anything wrong given the fact you lack solid reads Joy.

The presence of the 20k stack behind you adds a big complication oop for you on most flops if you just flat and they stay. Jamming is also not awesome for you without any real idea of how many hands you crush which are in the 20k's calling range, and you may not really "need" to flip for 33BB if you get called by un-paired overs on a jam (about the only un-paired cards you can really think are hugely likely to call without more info are 2 overs to JJ for a flip).

As such, I see absolutely nothing wrong with treating JJ more like a mid pp here than a monster one, when you've got little info to go on, and you do not really "need" to chip up immediately from 33BB (I'm guessing you are now an avg stack or near there, right?).

Hope it helps!

(EDIT: I am guessing since the action stops, you mucked?)

-JDean

Sorry, did not read the Q right. What would I do?

To me, JJ can be a big hand or it can be the best of the troublesome mid pp hands. What makes it one or the other is what I know about opponents. In this spot you say you know little about your opponents, so without that info your guide to how to view JJ is going to lie elsewhere...at least for me it is.



What is AVG stack?
(The smaller I am in relation to the AVG stack, the more likely I am to go with my hand here.)

How big is the field, and how many are left?
(Assuming I am on an avg stack, the closer I am to the money, the LESS likely I am to want to CALL into all in spots for significant parts of my stack. I will be more prepared to RAISE shorter stacks all in here, but there is a significant difference between raising and calling an all-in, especially with a potentially crippling actor left behind me.)

What is the pay out structure?
(If it is a standard escalating pay structure event with most of the money near the top spots, I am more likely to go for it. If this is a sattie type event and we are still a reasonably far distance from the prize, I am way more prone to mucking.)

How do I feel about playing a short stack versus a big stack?
(The more skilled I am at short stack play the more likely I take the risk here. The more I feel I want or "need" a big stack to have a realistic chance the more likely it is I will risk it here.)

So Joy, for me at least, there is no "set in stone" answer to what I am doing in this spot with JJ when I have no usable reads. I can say that I tend to like to follow Mike Caro's advice in these spots when I might be un-sure about what to do; he says: "When in doubt, consider one more factor".

I find that when I am trying to "consider one more factor" in a decsion, even if those things do not really weigh heavily in most normal hands, I see a pattern emerging to my "answers" ("Ya know, I really do not have to risk my chips when I am unsure because Im avg. This really is the first time Ive seen this person shove in the 8 hands Ive been here. That 20k stack is pretty passive and cally, and do I want to risk she has 2 overs and calls? These sorts of thoughts show a pattern that your gut thinks you should fold for instance, see?).

My experience has shown that this "pattern" reveals your instincts, and a lot of times your instincts are right, even if they activate on stuff you might only "know" in your sub-conscious.

So what did YOUR gut tell you to do here Joy....because that is really what matters I think.


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 11:05 AM..
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 06:09 AM
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spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Hi Joy,

I'm not sure what you did vs villain's raise, I suppose you deliberately left this out?

I like the preflop bet size, and you are facing a squeeze from someone with 15BB and an M-number of just over 7. While not being the shortest stack, she should still be looking to try and steal or double up to get out of the shove/fold stage if she can.

With JJ you are only behind QQ-AA and you should be happy to get it all in because you are either slightly ahead of or way ahead of the rest of her entire range.

I think villain's range is much wider than QQ+, so I'd reraise all in to try and make sure V6 doesn't also join in the fun.

Even if you lose, you'd still have 14K chips, a more than playable stack.
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 10:16 AM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spand42 View Post
Hi Joy,

I'm not sure what you did vs villain's raise, I suppose you deliberately left this out?

I like the preflop bet size, and you are facing a squeeze from someone with 15BB and an M-number of just over 7. While not being the shortest stack, she should still be looking to try and steal or double up to get out of the shove/fold stage if she can.

With JJ you are only behind QQ-AA and you should be happy to get it all in because you are either slightly ahead of or way ahead of the rest of her entire range.

I think villain's range is much wider than QQ+, so I'd reraise all in to try and make sure V6 doesn't also join in the fun.

Even if you lose, you'd still have 14K chips, a more than playable stack.
Spand...

What if Joy flats the jam, and the 20k+ villain shoves?

What if Joy jams to iso on the loose range of the shover, and the 20k stack has KQ/AQ/AK and cannot let it go; does she REALLY need to flip in this spot?


Double Bracelet Winner
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 02:31 PM
(#5)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,324
I'm shoving and not expecting the original caller to ever stack off. If they had a monster, they'd likely have 3-bet in the first place.
There's just too much money out there for me to not get it in with jacks here.


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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 04:48 PM
(#6)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Spand...

What if Joy flats the jam, and the 20k+ villain shoves?
That's why I don't like flatting the jam

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
What if Joy jams to iso on the loose range of the shover, and the 20k stack has KQ/AQ/AK and cannot let it go; does she REALLY need to flip in this spot?
I very much doubt that V6 is flat calling with AK/AQ, she'll almost certainly 3Bet shove with those hands. If she cold-calls a 2Bet and 3Bet jam with KQ, that's really spewy.

Like Arty says, there's so much dead money out there in addition to the shove and JJ is too strong a hand to fold. Joy has the chance to knock out another player to ladder up and getting a significant chip lead. If she loses against the 3Bettor, that's far from a disaster, she's still got a good stack.
 
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Sun Dec 29, 2013, 11:23 PM
(#7)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,284
Some very interesting discussion, thanks everyone. I think the key that most of you missed is that this is the final table, and I am currently the chip leader, though I had been the short stack not many hands ago.

JDean, you hit the nail on the head when you were concerned about the 20K stack behind me. This was a big minus sign for me, if I called and was either wrong, or got beaten by AK, AQ, or even AA KK QQ that slow played, I would be right back to being the short stack. I decided it was a risk I didn't need to take, and I folded. Here's how the hand played out.



I ended up finishing second, and I feel better about my decision now. The results made me doubt my reasoning in this hand. Once I got reads on those two opponents, they didn't last long and this hand helped.

I reviewed some of the prior hands, and the table had been tight with a lot of "raise and take it", and my image should have been tight as I had shown down only premium hands where I won. If I was a shorter stack I would have shoved, but I just won all those chips a few hands before and didn't want to risk most of them with what I consider a marginal hand facing an all in and possible 3 way action.
 
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Wed Jan 01, 2014, 12:42 PM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spand42 View Post
That's why I don't like flatting the jam



I very much doubt that V6 is flat calling with AK/AQ, she'll almost certainly 3Bet shove with those hands. If she cold-calls a 2Bet and 3Bet jam with KQ, that's really spewy.

Like Arty says, there's so much dead money out there in addition to the shove and JJ is too strong a hand to fold. Joy has the chance to knock out another player to ladder up and getting a significant chip lead. If she loses against the 3Bettor, that's far from a disaster, she's still got a good stack.
All I am alluding to is that Joy has no real info, and these micro MTT CAN tend to be pretty call-y/passive. I "get" where you come from; JJ is not a weak holding. But being oop and lacking info puts you into a weak spot. Obviously AA/KK in Joy's hand is a never fold, and I'd be inclined to say QQ is as well - assuming you have chips if you lose.

JJ though?

...maybe you can find a better spot if not to chip up, but perhaps not to get crippled (potentially).

Sometimes a good player folds the best hand in an MTT...


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Wed Jan 01, 2014, 02:49 PM
(#9)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post

Sometimes a good player folds the best hand in an MTT...
Thank you Jdean, I really value your opinion and you just made my day.

 
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Wed Jan 01, 2014, 02:54 PM
(#10)
TweedleBeetl's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,146
This reminds me of the old saying:

There are three ways to play pocket jacks, and all of them are wrong!
 
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Sun Jan 05, 2014, 02:30 PM
(#11)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joy7108 View Post
Thank you Jdean, I really value your opinion and you just made my day.

Im glad you got tyhe message I intended :-)

See Joy, I know you play a tight disciplined game, and you do not tend to "play scared". Part and parcel of a TAG style is that you MUST seek edges that are as big as possible, because you will tend to get fewer overall shots due to your preferred style of playing fewer hands.

As I see it, HU vs the shover is probably a call even though you know it may well result in you palying for almost half your stack in a race; the fact that the shover may only have a single live over, or that the initial caller (assuming they are on a similar stack to the shover)might have some of the live over outs the shover needs dictates it as a call I think.

But when you add in that other person haivng a stack which can cripple you, and with the nature of these micro's (especially ladies only micro's, sorry :-) ) being pretty passive/call-y with flats on big aces relatively common, means you will have a somewhat ugly time in a LOT of spots youmight continue on here.

So if you were looser, I'd say maybe your game says encourage the risk. But for YOU, a nice solid TAG, your are plenty good enough to find a better, more clear spot.


Double Bracelet Winner

Last edited by JDean; Sun Jan 05, 2014 at 02:39 PM..
 

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