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66 - Opening a small pair and getting to showdown

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66 - Opening a small pair and getting to showdown - Sun Jan 05, 2014, 02:19 PM
(#1)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Open Skill League Hand

With 66 in the cut-off seat table folds to me.

I open for a min raise. I only have 13BBs at 30/60 but this is the Open Skill League.

Button folds and both blinds call so I have position.

Flop comes 3d 9c 4d so not too bad from my perspective.

But the Big Blind opens for a min bet.

I opted to min-reraise - both SB and BB called.

Turn was a Tc putting two diamonds and two clubs on board.

River was 5c - potentially completing some low str8s and less likely club flushes

Both opps checked turn and river and I checked in position, got to showdown and won.



Seems a bit unusual. Was I doing anything terribly wrong?

Could I have tried another bet? On turn and/or river?

Both players were loose passive mainly but with a tendency to overbet when they had strong hands.

Cheers

Ed


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Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Sun Jan 05, 2014 at 02:25 PM..
 
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Sun Jan 05, 2014, 03:42 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
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Hi Ed!

This hand is a good example of where league strategy differs from a standard cash tourney. If this was a standard tourney, I'm open-shoving here all day long.

When playing hands, I want to keep all of my bets and raises standard. With 66 here, if I'm going to play the hand, I need to make a standard raise to 3BB+1BB for each limper. Players that min-raise early give off a tell that they have a marginal hand and that's something that I want to avoid. If I'm not willing to standard raise, then I need to muck it.

The flop brings one over and an opp bets into me. If I think the opp is bluffing, then I'll call here. If not, then I need to fold. I don't want to raise because a standard bet here against 2 opps is 2/3 pot, so if I raise, I need to raise by 2/3 pot and in a league game without the nuts, I don't want to be raising here and having to shove, as a 2/3 pot raise pot-commits me.

The turn and river don't help me and I'm going to check here. I may have the best hand and I may not and with this being early in a league game, I can't take unnecessary chances.

With the opps tendency to overbet made hands, I'm more likely to call the flop bet than fold, but I will need to give up to a large bet on the turn/river.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Sun Jan 05, 2014, 03:52 PM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Hiya Ed...

Personally I see nothing at all strange here, given the info you provide (LP villains). The best way (in my opinion) to play LP villains is to not really bet up your marginal value hands too strongly. The nature of LP players is that they tend to call WAY too often on both draws and semi-weak made hands, so since they do not fold it is very hard to extract thinner V bets effectively across multiple streets. The requirements of league play merely enforces this in my opinion.

The flop min bet might have been a blocking bet (especially given your read they tend to bet bigger for value), and the call might have been on any of a wide range of kludge, so I see nothing REALLY wrong with a small raise for value with only a single overcard there; but when BOTH stay in I see nothing at all wrong with coasting in what is now a pretty fat pot anyway. I mean if possible you do want avoid giving totally free cards, and since the villains are potentially going to call on 2nd/3rd pairs too, you should let 'em - but after that, shutting down is not such a rotten idea I'd think.

Facing only 1 villain you MIGHT consider a V bet on the river, but again that could be pretty thin with the stack sizes, and is probably too risky for league play. You are really never folding out a T in an LP's hand, and 9s may be tough folds too given the action/pot size. LP players who chase could well think a C/R when they get there is smart too, so there is no surety that a check by both ahead means bottom/2nd flop pairs either. As I see it, by the river any V bet sizing is an all or nothing proposition, or else the reward of a tiny bet does not really balance out agaisnt your further loss of chips if you are called by better.

So...

Without at least some greater chance of folding out better hands than you are likely to find versus 2 x LP villains, I simply cannot think a 3rd pair bet here any time after the flop makes any sense on your stack size unless it is like a min bet...but then is the risk of losing another BB worth that bet beign WRONG and called in the league?


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Last edited by JDean; Sun Jan 05, 2014 at 04:00 PM..
 
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Sun Jan 05, 2014, 05:35 PM
(#4)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Hi Ed!

This hand is a good example of where league strategy differs from a standard cash tourney. If this was a standard tourney, I'm open-shoving here all day long.

Absolutely agree John!

When playing hands, I want to keep all of my bets and raises standard. With 66 here, if I'm going to play the hand, I need to make a standard raise to 3BB+1BB for each limper. Players that min-raise early give off a tell that they have a marginal hand and that's something that I want to avoid. If I'm not willing to standard raise, then I need to muck it.

I had been min-raising all my hands that I opened - so this was my 'standard' raise in the context of the game. The opponents had also seen me do so and show down with some pretty marginal holdings so I expected one or more calls preflop.

The flop brings one over and an opp bets into me. If I think the opp is bluffing, then I'll call here. If not, then I need to fold. I don't want to raise because a standard bet here against 2 opps is 2/3 pot, so if I raise, I need to raise by 2/3 pot and in a league game without the nuts, I don't want to be raising here and having to shove, as a 2/3 pot raise pot-commits me.

Post-flop is tricky with my stack size and current MO (admittedly a bit all over the place) - I don't want to call-fold to a reraise - I don't mind raise folding to a reraise though - if at all possible I want to continue the hand and bet - and as I didn't put opp on a 9 then I felt this was the better option. Again min-raise is all-I have been seen to do.

The turn and river don't help me and I'm going to check here. I may have the best hand and I may not and with this being early in a league game, I can't take unnecessary chances.

I really wanted to put one more bet in - but you are right - I don't this was a good situation to reopen the betting on turn or river when checked to me. I thought I had the best hand but it was getting weaker every street.

With the opps tendency to overbet made hands, I'm more likely to call the flop bet than fold, but I will need to give up to a large bet on the turn/river.

Agreed

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)
Thanks John - always great stuff.

Ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Jan 05, 2014, 05:46 PM
(#5)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Hiya Ed...

Personally I see nothing at all strange here, given the info you provide (LP villains). The best way (in my opinion) to play LP villains is to not really bet up your marginal value hands too strongly. The nature of LP players is that they tend to call WAY too often on both draws and semi-weak made hands, so since they do not fold it is very hard to extract thinner V bets effectively across multiple streets. The requirements of league play merely enforces this in my opinion.

Yes - I know what you mean - I hadn't related that as closely to the league requirements though

The flop min bet might have been a blocking bet (especially given your read they tend to bet bigger for value), and the call might have been on any of a wide range of kludge (lovely word btw), so I see nothing REALLY wrong with a small raise for value with only a single overcard there; but when BOTH stay in I see nothing at all wrong with coasting in what is now a pretty fat pot anyway. I mean if possible you do want avoid giving totally free cards, and since the villains are potentially going to call on 2nd/3rd pairs too, you should let 'em - but after that, shutting down is not such a rotten idea I'd think.

The turn river cards scared me off more bets - but I had their ranges pretty well down and would have loved just one more thin V-bet - as you say - can't be too much wrong with winning a reasonable pot when they let you coast in though.

Facing only 1 villain you MIGHT consider a V bet on the river, but again that could be pretty thin with the stack sizes, and is probably too risky for league play. You are really never folding out a T in an LP's hand, and 9s may be tough folds too given the action/pot size. LP players who chase could well think a C/R when they get there is smart too, so there is no surety that a check by both ahead means bottom/2nd flop pairs either. As I see it, by the river any V bet sizing is an all or nothing proposition, or else the reward of a tiny bet does not really balance out agaisnt your further loss of chips if you are called by better.

So...

Without at least some greater chance of folding out better hands than you are likely to find versus 2 x LP villains, I simply cannot think a 3rd pair bet here any time after the flop makes any sense on your stack size unless it is like a min bet...but then is the risk of losing another BB worth that bet beign WRONG and called in the league?

This is the big question I am trying to answer this month, with an adjusted OSL stylee - will report my findings later
Thanks JDean - another great response.

PSO still great for the best minds helping at any stakes.

Cheers

Ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Jan 05, 2014, 05:47 PM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,836
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Ed,

The thing with the min-raises... they'll basically always price in the opp. This way it's a +EV play for the opps to call if they have anything marginally made or a draw. Whenever possible, I want the opp to have to make a play where they expect to lose chips, not where they expect to gain chips.

With giving them +EV play after +EV play... I'm going to lose chips to them on average over time and there's nothing I can do about it... why I try not to make those plays. It's something that a knowledgeable player can very easily exploit.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun Jan 05, 2014, 08:23 PM
(#7)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Ed,

The thing with the min-raises... they'll basically always price in the opp. This way it's a +EV play for the opps to call if they have anything marginally made or a draw. Whenever possible, I want the opp to have to make a play where they expect to lose chips, not where they expect to gain chips.

With giving them +EV play after +EV play... I'm going to lose chips to them on average over time and there's nothing I can do about it... why I try not to make those plays. It's something that a knowledgeable player can very easily exploit.

John (JWK24)
Thanks John. In a regular tourney I am never bet-sizing this way unless there is a compelling reason to do so.

I have reasons for posting this specific hand - and the great analysis you and JDean gave (as always) has helped a lot. I'm trying to merge that with some of my own thoughts - about standard plays and what adjustments to make,if any, and when.

The PSO OSL is a good place to try stuff out. I am finding it even more so now that I have no worries about the final league placings. After 3 days play I confidently predict that at the end of the month I will earn my one dollar from the leaderboard. No more no less. That puts a different perspective on things and sometimes I will enter an OSL game and treat it like a standard tourney, or I might try a very passive style, or very loose aggressive, or just mix it up. This tourney I think I played plain weird tbh. I find that whatever I do my league position come month end hits a certain range that could only be improved with a great run of luck or a vast number of tourneys.

Thanks for the feedback - much appreciated.

Ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon Jan 06, 2014, 04:35 AM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
(note to clarify in case it was unclear: an LP player is EASY to get value from - they keep calling so you keep betitng when you are ahead. But when you have MARGINAL value you might not be ahead, so you have no real clue if/when you continue betting across multiple streets whether you are betting into a hand that is weaker than your's or whether you are simply betting into a weak but STRONGER hand the LP is too stubborn or gambly to fold. The LP player is exactly the type who will not give you any clue by his action, since his default brain setting is a call; it really sooks to get to the river only to find he failed to muck 2nd pair to 3 streets of betting when you put him on a flush draw! Thus with marginal value hands, extraction across multiple streets becomes difficult...see?)


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