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Interpersonal Etiquette - A freeroll

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Interpersonal Etiquette - A freeroll - Mon Jan 06, 2014, 10:47 AM
(#1)
stix144's Avatar
Since: Dec 2009
Posts: 226
Since even the most simple reply from me can end up more lengthy than I intended it to, My first advice to you before reading any further, Will be, Make yourself cosy, This might be long!!

I was in two minds over whether to write this at all, The deciding factor, Was something Ed said last night, So this morning I typed the word etiquette into the forum search,
And almost unsurprisingly, out of the numerous results that came up, Most, Were about game ettiquette, And very few related to interpersonnal etiquette, And even those were mainly table related or about foul language etc.
So on that basis I chose to go ahead, And post something to re address that balance.

I might seem like an odd candidate to care about such things, Since most people who know me would realise that anyone who tried, would find it very difficult, To have any significant negative effect on me, By failing to show proper etiquette towards me

To start with, Here is How our use of language is determined by the rules here at PSO: As quoted by Brian in a thread I just read.

Quote:
Verbal abuse includes:
Inappropriate language directed at another player with the obvious attempt to humiliate or degrade the other player.

Vicious and berating comments about another's play. (This does not include 'friendly advice').

Threatening bodily harm to another player or player's family and/or property.

Making sexual or racially insulting references or using degrading language.
All of this seems just fine, But it does allow us to miss a few important things too..
Try reading point one, but leave out just the first two letters, With a simple change like that.. Now all of a sudden, It describes something that happens a lot more often in here, And is regularly left unchallenged!

Around about now some of your brains might be screaming hypocrite, And ok that could be true if It was based only on the fact that in a short time, I have also had one or two disagreements with people here, But in one way or another, They were all also in defence of this viewpoint, And with people who had contradicted it.
And it is the one set of circumstances where I will remain willing to all out fight!
The most noteworthy of those incidents was with a high standing member here, And although it was not reported per say, It was voiced to an appropriate quarter, As a potential problem, I effectively just got told, There there now just ignore it!

I wasn't going to include that in this post, But since I have heard from several different individuals since then, That they have also experienced the exact same thing, And from the same directions, And with the same end result, Or worse, It leads to a point I must make that no ammount of ability, Standing, Success, Or past record, Should ever buy us the right to be allowed to get away with behavior like that.

Even the most basic of replies by us to a thread, can lead to problems which can escalate, Remember this (Another Brian quote) things can get lost in text.
So when we Don't read a thread properly before slamming away at the keys, Or rush to form a response, Just so that we can be first in and make sure no one makes the point we wanted to make before us. It can lead to misunderstandings which then escalate. (I deleted the point that followed this. It's Way too controversial but it related to why i think people do that, so read between lines at will

Ok so how should we behave towards each other. It might seem like an obvious answer, And to many of us at most times, It is, But we cannot just sugar coat everything either in the hope that the most sensitive Amonsgst us will not be offended, But what we can do, Even when we are saying something which may be contraverstial, Is make it clear that we had helping in mind and not berating.

It has been said and is also true that we need a thick skin for poker, But that is something some of us only grow over time, And the need for a thick skin during the game itself, Does not give us a ready made excuse to attack at will in here!
And neither should.. It's the net stuff happens be a valid excuse to ignore the need to consider etiquette in advance, And not simply notice retrespoctively the times when someone didn't use it.

Here are some examples of people who I think illustrate these qualities very well:
And If you feel I have omitted your type or yourself, From these descriptions, Please don't take offence, Since there are many others who fit these models, But I have to stop somewhere So I have chosen examples which I think best illustrate the points, In a way that the most people will get.

If we do want to be critical, The best example I have found was when GLR suprnova elite, Commented on a hand analysis posted by Gareth the other day, It's one of the best examples I have yet to find of combining constructive criticism, With humility, And humour too, You can find it here:

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...ght=godlikeroy

Next take a look at the exmple OBB is setting. He manages to combine humour with nearly everything, And successfully too! And If someone with his experience and results, Can still bring themselves to help anyone who asks, With even the most basic of noob problems, And do it with such a plomb and still have a bit of fun too, What excuse have any of us got not to follow such a fine example!

It's why in all of my years on stars.. I recently changed my avatar, For the first time! To mark the respect and agreement that I have for that standpoint! Not something I would ever do lightly!

Claim your very own air guitar here:

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...am-Flanders-HQ


And one last example, Even if we do want to take everything seriously, That can still be achieved with all other things in mind, Just look at any of the responses you see on here from Hand analyzer Spand42, If I ever see a joke in one of them I will frame it, But every response I have read, Is concise, Clear, Helpful to the point of going above and beyond what was asked, Those responses come from someone who is obviously a very clever person, But they never come with any single hint of a suggestion that they are looking down at us rather than across at us!
I could not even narrow down one single example for a link in this instance, So just click here and you will find many:

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...earchid=946207

There are many other examples of all of these things, Take Joe, Ed, Gareth and Chris as just a few.. A Strong note of respect also needs to go to Dave, look at how much help he gives us here, Despite being black Friday excluded from playing at Stars!!
If I did not include a reference to you, No offence was meant by it.

So to my main reason for having written this, Our community, As with any other, Is only as strong as the next generation we influence, So can we all please, Think a little more carefully in future about what that influence might be.

Any views or comments whether they are in agreement or at polar opposites, Are welcome and will be respected.
If you made it this far. Thank you for reading
 
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Mon Jan 06, 2014, 11:40 AM
(#2)
auntyrae's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 426
Some great pointers there Stix It's too easy for us to forget that there's a living breathing human being at the other end of the computer screen, we would definitely be a little more careful in our wording in the "real world face to face scenario" wouldn't we?

As you said there are plenty of posters on here who set a great example of how to help without exuding the "better than thou" attitude, I for one try to follow their example. If I ever don't, please feel free to chastise me in a nice way
 
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Mon Jan 06, 2014, 03:57 PM
(#3)
ouchbadbeat's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 347
poker is like science

you can have scientific experts, but their expert status alone isnt enough for them to skip over the scientific method and make wild claims - all scientists can be challenged on their sciencey stuff (yes im no professor obv)

Quote:
It leads to a point I must make that no ammount of ability, Standing, Success, Or past record, Should ever buy us the right to be allowed to get away with behavior like that.
definitely
to stick with the science/poker analogy, if i was chilling with Stephen Hawking (as i do often) and i told him "hey stevey, i just looked at my old GCSEs (uk school exams) and i got a double B " to which he responded "wow. that's pathetic. i have discovered new theories about black holes and antimatter, your scientific knowledge is worthless compared to me, you might as well go jump off a cliff"

firstly i'd be a bit confused, because me and hawkey go wayyy back and i'd wonder why he'd turned on me : but then id figure that hey, he's a genius, but he sure is being an**deleted inappropriate language JWK24**today


but similarly if i was playing against an amazing poker player, i can respect their ability while at the same time disrespecting their attitude

your rambley thread made me ramble a bit

Last edited by JWK24; Mon Jan 06, 2014 at 05:08 PM..
 
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Mon Jan 06, 2014, 05:06 PM
(#4)
Marc Rae's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 505
to your posts ouchbadbeat.. love your work


..that was a great post from GLR.
 
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Mon Jan 06, 2014, 06:09 PM
(#5)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
I have spend most of the day thinking about this.

my favorite character from the Dilbert universe is Alice, who on being told she could not have a raise that year because she was intolerant of others differences replies that he boss was being intolerant of her intolerance.

I'm not sure that anyone in these forums deliberately sets out to belittle anyone's play but we all I am sure can get defensive when we know we are right and the other side is so wrong.

Personally I struggle with Spelling and structure when writing a post so for me to add a humorous way of saying "sorry but that was a silly play because" is not going to happen. Personally I like to see threads where two (preferably more) people are arguing back and fore about a play or possible action as it tends to lend its self to better explanations and also shows that in the complex world of poker there is more than one way to play.

I'm saddened to hear that some of your friends do not post here and I hope that will change in the future. I know you say the solution is to make it clear we have helping in mind not berating but how to achieve this with out the average poster deciding that that is too much like hard work. I do not just hope to see JWK's Or Faydens thoughts on my hand (or the other hand analyzers sorry didn't stop to look you all up. I want to see your thoughts and the other people who come here Ideally I would like to see 4 different ways to play the hand (if only so it isn't so bad that i messed it up) as long as Each one comes with a reason (flawed or otherwise), I'm happy.

You can't please everyone all of the time. (it wasn't that long ago we forum users were moaning as how quickly threads where closed , removed or users warned by the mods)

anyway now I'm rambling so will stop now

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon Jan 06, 2014, 08:38 PM
(#6)
stix144's Avatar
Since: Dec 2009
Posts: 226
I am very grateful For all of your thoughtful replies , They capture the spirit this thread was intended in perfectly. Aunty.. me chastise you I thought you would have had enough of that by now (for anyone not realising we are jesting, she gives me as good as she gets!! you have all been given a heads up there.)

Ouch If it made you ramble, That alone was worth the few hours it took me to compose
Sorry it was long, Thank you for the effort you took there, You know what I mean.

Marc, I am Not sure what to say to that but I will take it as a positive sign that you read it and took something from it. Whatever that may have been.

And to Grade B.. Thank you for your kindness, And thank you for helping create an example that I can point to when I need to One thing I will add in the defence of anyone who finds structuring language an issue, Is when something is truly spoken from the heart, It is very rarely misheard or misunderstood
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 04:29 PM
(#7)
stix144's Avatar
Since: Dec 2009
Posts: 226
Ok it's time to put this one to bed, Whether kvetch sprang to someones mind correctly or not it does not dilute the relevence of the things I have raised. And above within the original post that was refered to, Is a caveat stating that I defend my views In situations like that, So no contradiction of any call I made occurred.

As to the other Half of the story which was not told in full, And while the storyteller was engrossed by only the comments in raiser's thread, They were perhaps unaware of the remainder of events that were occuring simultaniously, Namely the offensive, vulgar,and Abusive! pm's that were landing in my inbox from the same source (substantiated).
The exact contents of those I cannot share here without breaching a rule, But if you consider that their nature alone was perhaps enough to cause the months delay in their sender being able to reply here, I count you as cerebral enough to make an educated guess.
I did not even pass those on until I was required to substantiate the above comments, I prefer to deal with my own problems, But since that is in some ways frowned upon here. And for more than just my own benefit, I took the only option that was given to me, But having also discovered during the interim, That I was apparently not the only person who had experienced this problem, I have had no reservations about having done that.

As voiced above, Nobody's high standing can be an excuse for that. So let's not now allow incomplete information to be a reason for anyone's choice to defend it. In particular since it's defence is a glaring pointer to why so many come, And quickly go too.
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 04:55 PM
(#8)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
When someone responds to me in off-color language I take that they cannot refute my point. It doesn't insult or infuriate. If that happens I must consider why I reacted negatively to what is essentially a resignation from the discussion on their part.

And trust me, I have been the recipient of all the responses in my recently opened discussion. At one time I frequently overreacted but I've learned a different view point over the years. Dwelling on things out of my control is wasted time.
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 05:02 PM
(#9)
stix144's Avatar
Since: Dec 2009
Posts: 226
Any apparent resignations from discussions on my part, has only been owing to consequences for moving threads off topic, So please never read that as a resignation on my part.
I tend not to dwell too much on things out of my control either, But when effective discussion is capable of resolving even difficult issues I rarely shy away from that.
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 05:07 PM
(#10)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Piecing this together is quite interesting watching.

Puts the replies in my 'brag' thread into context a little. Very little it seems was actually to do with my thread, which was, afterall, not aimed at any PSO members or even particularly at the person who I stacked (I dont know who it was). More to do with a PM war with someone.

Teh internets. Got to love it.
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 05:13 PM
(#11)
stix144's Avatar
Since: Dec 2009
Posts: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
Piecing this together is quite interesting watching.

Puts the replies in my 'brag' thread into context a little. Very little it seems was actually to do with my thread, which was, afterall, not aimed at any PSO members or even particularly at the person who I stacked (I dont know who it was). More to do with a PM war with someone.

Teh internets. Got to love it.
On the contrary, It relates a lot to it, Since in most cultures, The phrase how do you like that now, Huh, Can have aggressive undertones, Now while I fully accept that It did not in your instance, How others could interpret that may differ, And since there is also a forum rule which clearly states we must consider making appropriate titles to our threads.. It also ties in with that too. The way you handled the ensuing conversation, Still remains commendable, And provides evidence to anyone who reads your thread of your true feelings and intentions when writing it.

Last edited by stix144; Thu Jan 09, 2014 at 05:20 PM..
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 05:38 PM
(#12)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Funny stix, I don't recall any off-color language from you. I must have missed something. ;-)
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 05:47 PM
(#13)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
That's the thing though, on the internet, it is a mishmash of cultures, backgrounds, temperaments and any number of other variables. How anyone reacts to something you say is impossible to predict for the most part unless you actually know them and have talked to them.

Something said with tongue in cheek can cause offence to others.

If you try and stay on the right side of everyone you will generally end up saying nothing at all.

For a forum that seems so 'vanilla' for the most part there does appear to be a tonne of politics at play at times although that is perhaps a misconception of mine.
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 05:52 PM
(#14)
stix144's Avatar
Since: Dec 2009
Posts: 226
Joe, The only thing you might have missed is that I was explaining why I appeared to resign from our earlier conversation, And to make that clear did not require me to be referring your your statement in full
In full Though your comment stands as an excellent and greatly received contribution to this thread. Thanks for that. See what I mean Joe, it does not take much to turn things around when more than just one side is willing. Perhaps other situations could have been avoided too given the same type of handling..
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 06:00 PM
(#15)
stix144's Avatar
Since: Dec 2009
Posts: 226
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
That's the thing though, on the internet, it is a mishmash of cultures, backgrounds, temperaments and any number of other variables. How anyone reacts to something you say is impossible to predict for the most part unless you actually know them and have talked to them.

Something said with tongue in cheek can cause offence to others.

If you try and stay on the right side of everyone you will generally end up saying nothing at all.

For a forum that seems so 'vanilla' for the most part there does appear to be a tonne of politics at play at times although that is perhaps a misconception of mine.
That's just it though, It may seem vanilla for the most part but as I have shown, Even from the most respected, Much more can be going on than meets the eye.
And I agree that we cannot please everyone, I have said as much in this post that we cannot just sugar coat everything, But that we can at least think first. And where something has the possibility of being misinterpreted, That we are all clever enough to realise that in advance, And provide reasonable means for that to be avoided. Especially since we are a mixture of cultures. It's not really that difficult is it?

And no I don't think you seeing lots of politics is a misconception at all, I see a lot of it too, Perhaps some in different places, Perhaps some the same

Thanks to everyone who has been contributing a variety of views to this thread, It shows it's relevance just by identifying the different ways people think about it. And I am grateful to everyone who has taken their time to voice their opinions respectfully.

Last edited by stix144; Thu Jan 09, 2014 at 06:21 PM..
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 08:54 PM
(#16)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Bhoy,

Whenever you have a group of people interacting over time "politics" will develop. It's inevitable as it's human nature. We each have our reasons for being here. Ans we are all here because it serves some purpose for us. There is something we want out of the interactions and materials available to us. To put in political speak, we each have our own "agenda". That is a statement of fact and has nothing to do with the negative connotation of the word.

Everybody,

In situations like this differences of opinion are unavoidable. Unfortunately some can not disagree without being disagreeable. Those who do not understand themselves well rarely recognize their part in such circumstances. Some will act knowing the results but not caring about the impact. And some will act deliberately to generate such responses.

Good decisions and good intentions make for a successful community.
 
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Sat Jan 11, 2014, 01:12 AM
(#17)
TOO2COO's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,882
(Super-Moderator)
this thread is **closed**


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