Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

25NL 6Max Zoom - Aggressively played draw

Old
Default
25NL 6Max Zoom - Aggressively played draw - Mon Jan 06, 2014, 07:06 PM
(#1)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496


Villain: 25/17, AF: 4.80 (176 hands) He plays aggressively post-flop including running bluffs and taking aggressive lines with 2nd pair.

Thoughts on the preflop call?

I decided to semi-bluff the turn with the intention of calling a 3Bet. Is this a good line to take or am I overplaying my hand? I didn't really want to 4Bet jam because we were both so deep.

Could I have raised the river for value or would I only get action from A-high flush?
 
Old
Default
Mon Jan 06, 2014, 08:32 PM
(#2)
Danutz75's Avatar
Since: Oct 2013
Posts: 273
I have to say I think you played this really strangely

First of all pre flop, if you are going to play KT pre then you do so accepting it will be across multiple streets. For that reason I would want to give the villain a little to think about and 3 bet pre, if I decide to play it all. I think just flatting may limit any stronger hands you may need to rep later on.

The flop is amazing for us. I am happy to raise, raise, raise here. 3 bet the flop, if he 4 bets then 5 bet. I do not like flatting at all. Raising gives us the chance to take the pot down there and then, or build it up, either is good.

Turn is the time I don't like the 3 bet! If he is still in the hand after preceding betting then just call it.

The river? Is flatting here an option? I don't see it like that. You simply have to raise his river bet.

Last edited by Danutz75; Mon Jan 06, 2014 at 08:36 PM..
 
Old
Default
Mon Jan 06, 2014, 09:35 PM
(#3)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
KTs is just outside our flatting range vs a MP open so I prefer playing this hand as a 3b.

We have such huge equity on this kind of flop I think we should be raising to protect our equity with the intention of getting it in.

River is a fistpump shove. If you call river and he shows a T then that's a terrible result if he would call a shove.
 
Old
Default
Mon Jan 06, 2014, 11:58 PM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danutz75 View Post
Turn is the time I don't like the 3 bet!
Forgive my pedantry, but the misuse of terminology is one of my pet hates, and I feel compelled to point it out. A raise on the turn is a 2-bet, because it's the second bet-size on that street. A 3-bet (the third different bet size) is a re-raise.

/pedant mode over. Now back to usual scheduled program.

I usually raise flop, and definitely stack off on river. Kind of pointless to play KTs in the first place if you're not getting all in when you make the second nuts.


Bracelet Winner
 
Old
Default
Tue Jan 07, 2014, 12:02 AM
(#5)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
I don't dislike the preflop or flop flats, I don't like overplaying KT as well.
I think turn should be a call, not a raise.
Our raise doesn't make a lot of sense on the turn, since with two pair+ we would probably raise flop for value, also our range looks like we either are on a draw or we got JT.
As played raising the river would look weird but I believe we would be getting calls from a lot worse.

Last edited by GamblingProp; Tue Jan 07, 2014 at 12:06 AM..
 
Old
Default
Tue Jan 07, 2014, 12:12 AM
(#6)
Danutz75's Avatar
Since: Oct 2013
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
Forgive my pedantry, but the misuse of terminology is one of my pet hates, and I feel compelled to point it out. A raise on the turn is a 2-bet, because it's the second bet-size on that street. A 3-bet (the third different bet size) is a re-raise.

/pedant mode over. Now back to usual scheduled program.
.
I forgive you, as I far too tired to care about people being pedantic about random mistypes.
 
Old
Default
Tue Jan 07, 2014, 03:47 AM
(#7)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
It's really difficult to put you on the flush draw there. I would put you on sets and JT. and I think he's got QQ-99 there very often and his bet looks like block bet going to fold to a raise or nut flush AsQs-As9s and don't won't to give you free show down . calling is the best option I think. He folds his weaker hands on the wet board and calls your raise with nuts.
P.S.
edited after reviewing my comment

Last edited by Shichi-77; Tue Jan 07, 2014 at 04:15 AM..
 
Old
Default
Tue Jan 07, 2014, 05:06 AM
(#8)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi spand,

I think this would have played out alot different had we 3bet preflop. Like birdayy said, KTs is out of my calling range too; I would 3bet or fold. 3betting will work nicely for us I think with this type of hand when we are >100bbs

So as played my question comes OTF. Should I play my draw aggressively here and raise or just call?
The answer I think boils down to what we will do if we raise and villain 3bets us. Say we make it 4$ and they raise us to 10$ so the pot will be like 16$ before we call/re-raise so we need like 35% equity to stack off. Hand that would stack off I think with this depth of money will be sets, and NFD (AsKs, AsQs,AsJs) against those hands we fall short with 31% equity so we need them to get the rest in with AA/KK to make stacking off OTF +EV. But again given the depth of money I think AA/KK, AQ will not get all in OTF. Also from this position when they cbet this flop I think we might have less fold equity than we expect when we do raise. But because the percentage of the time they 3bet us on the flop is low (11 combos that re-raise us from say 136 combos that would cbet this flop) then there might be an argument to be made to raise the flop and maybe fold to a 3bet? I'm a bit torn here with the flop line; but I think it might go both ways call and employ position if villain is less aggressive with their turn barrels or raise and check back turns unimproved.

As far as the turn play goes, I think we represent little with our turn raise. JT is probably the only hand because with sets on this board we would be fast playing most of the time. Also the board is getting ugly and they continue to bet so that should signal some strength to us and raising might be a spew since there is little chance they would fold after they bet twice on this run out. After the lines that we took and villain continues to bet OTR I think I'll just call there too.
 
Old
Default
Tue Jan 07, 2014, 05:30 AM
(#9)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
I think Geo nailed the reason I chose not to raise the flop. I felt that my hand was way too strong to bluff, but not strong enough for value. Don't forget we started out the hand with 150BB deep, he's probably only going to be getting it in on the flop (say calling my 4Bet shove) with real monster hands.

I thought that if he was going to 3Bet the flop and be willing to get all in on the flop, he's only doing this with sets or AQss, maybe some other nut flush draws, which like Geo says my equity is actually really bad against.

OTT I was trying to represent JT and turn my hand into a bluff intending to fold to a 3Bet, but I think that this was a mistake as you guys picked up on.

OTR I thought that if I shoved, most of the time I get called it would be by Axss. He would likely have played his sets faster OTT and I certainly don't think he has ever has a set when he just calls the turn and leads the river on what should be a super scare card for him. Therefore I reckoned he was pretty much guaranteed to have a flush here, just a question of which flush?

AQss makes a ton of sense here, while other Axss also would play the hand like this. How many Q high flushes does he have in his preflop raising range? Q8ss is probably the only one. After that you're down to stuff like 76ss, 65ss, 54ss. He might call a river shove with these I suppose? It's tough to say.

I just thought Axss made a huge portion of his calling range so I thought that by shoving I would be value-owning myself.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com