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AA Quandry in NL and PL

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AA Quandry in NL and PL - Tue Dec 03, 2002, 01:19 PM
(#1)
Deleted user
How do you protect your hand against people trying to bust you in a game when you raise preflop with a hand such as AA in NL? If you raise just 4x BB or even 8xBB you will get multiple, and I mean, multiple callers. If you raise 1 BB, you will probably still get one or two callers. Also, if you raise big, you are going to have to go all-in on the flop because the pot is so big. This means that you will not have the opportunity to dump your hand. If you raise too little, you make it profitable for certain hands to play against you.

Last edited by comb@t; Tue Aug 28, 2007 at 08:02 AM..
 
Old
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Tue Dec 03, 2002, 01:31 PM
(#2)
Deleted user
AA early in a tourny when money is deep is always a hand where you have to play carefully IF you see a flop.

but if you are getting 2,3,4 or more callers to a preflop raise then i want to get in on that game please.
either you are playing on a very loose table or your image is wrong and people are marking you as a fish and WANTING to play against you.

even in the WPO round 1 i rarely get reraised or called if i make a pot sized raise unless there is a REAL manaic on the table or i have been making ALOT of plays.
 
Old
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Tue Dec 03, 2002, 01:33 PM
(#3)
Deleted user
AA is never a guaranteed winner, but it is a very profitable hand. if you raise 4 times the blind, and get callers, so be it.... you want some action. if the flop comes 10/J/J, your aces may no longer be good. aces can and sometimes have to be folded post flop. use your best judgement. if the board is 3/6/Q and someone fires all in at you, then call or reeraise all in to isolate them. more often then not, they will have top pair or KK, and you will win a ton of money. dont be afraid of people coming into the pot when you hold AA. if they dont call, then you make nothing but the blinds.

you can do one of two things i think, either vary your raises every time you come into a pot, so no one knows what you have or are representing. or raise 3 or 4 times the blind(you pick which one) every time you open with a raise. this also disguises your hand because you raise the same amount every time.

if the flop brings a paired board, play cautiously. if the flop brings three of one suit, play cautiously( if you are not holding the ace in that suit) if the flop brings any 3 cards in the playing zone( which is 9 through K) beware of two pair or a str8, play cautiously. any other type of flop, make them pay dearly to draw out on you. in the long run, your hand will be profitable.

if you are afraid of people playing against you when you hold aces(preflop), maybe you need to take a break and reset your thinking about NL or PL hold em. when you are strong, play strong!!!!!!!!
 
Old
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Tue Dec 03, 2002, 01:44 PM
(#4)
Deleted user
Ironside...I'm speaking of a cash game..but a cash game and an early tourney game are not much different. I play in games where several people call my raises (which at first sounds good). Of course, my raises to many people, seem virtually meaningless because I raise frequently and sometimes with absolute pure, unplayable trash. I also show these cards if I happen to win with them (I once showed a 72 off for dramatic effect). These people will call me....I just find out how to protect myself from getting busted holding only a pair in my hand.
 
Old
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Tue Dec 03, 2002, 02:16 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
Its really a double-edged sword...People call with the intent of busting you for your entire stack if you hold it or call you thinking that you don't have a power hand (I frequently raise with hands other than premium hands to throw people off). Everyone tries to bust you on implied odds, so the important thing is to find a raise amount that protects you from the implied odds that the callers are getting. So, if everyone had $1000 at a table where the blinds were 50 cents, and they knew that they could get your entire stack if they hit, would it not be profitable to call with anything? Of course it would. Few situations are that extreme, however. If you frequently raise with nothing or semi-bluff type hands...like AJ...you add the element of doubt into the minds of the other players. At that point, you have a recipe of having no idea what is going on post-flop because some will reraise all-in with top pair....but they might just have flopped a set on you....while others, thinking you have nothing...will come over the top heavy and hard on a pure bluff...in essence...an attempt to rebluff your bluff.
 
Old
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Tue Dec 03, 2002, 02:37 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
what you just explained is what makes poker so great and seperates the winners from the losers. it is not worth it to play any two cards, unless you have an endless supply of money. being able to read the players is a skill that takes a long time to learn. but if you become proficient at it, you will be able to play back at a top pair hand, and fold to a set. everyone has a tell, everyone....... you just have to find out what it is.
 
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Tue Dec 03, 2002, 02:58 PM
(#7)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
First, your comment "holding only a pair" speaks volumes about your game. Since a pair will make a set ~1 out of 8 flops and a set is the best disguised hand in HE a pair is the beginning of a potentially GOOT hand. It is true that unaided pairs often lose so you have to know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.

Second, AA is even money to the field if you get 4 callers. This means you are getting 4:1 money on an even money bet. Sure you lose some of them, but the edge is huge why avoid it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by diej2002
I play in games where several people call my raises (which at first sounds good). Of course, my raises to many people, seem virtually meaningless because I raise frequently and sometimes with absolute pure, unplayable trash. I also show these cards if I happen to win with them (I once showed a 72 off for dramatic effect).
Lastly, frequent raising means your raises are not going to be respected as much as a player with a tight aggressive image. This give you the odds you need to play weaker hands profitably but means your premium hands will lose more often, however, you will win more when they hit.
 
Old
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Tue Dec 03, 2002, 04:42 PM
(#8)
Deleted user
Diej, Ironside hit the nail on the head. I've played with you and watched in a few of those games and thought your post flop play was awesome! In the 3 games I saw, you made at least 3-4 times the buyin within an hour. Of course there is the inherent high variance with pushing the edges pre flop and that's probably why you are posting.

To illustrate Ironside's point when I open raised $1 everyone folded. When you open raise they call because they can't put you on a hand.

We each have the right table image for our post flop skill. If I had your skill I would push the limits too and only play with premium hands when opps began calling en mass. When they begin respecting your bets again, go back to pushing the edges and so on. I think this is part of the table dynamics the better players here refer to.

Keep on attacking this game, Den
 
Old
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Tue Dec 03, 2002, 07:45 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
Jay

Just remember when you are in Tunica....my only tell is....when i bet....i have the best hand!

= )~
 
Old
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Wed Dec 04, 2002, 11:22 AM
(#10)
Deleted user
Thanks for all your comments. There was some really good stuff in there. Maraden..what's your screen name so I can say hey when we're playing together.

I think that I should clarify something here. I get reraised all in a lot with just top pair because of the nature of my play. This happened twice last night.

Let's set up the scenario...

Blinds .25/.1

Several limpers...I raise to $3

3 people call my raise..about $13 in the trophy at that point

flop cometh....8 5 2 rainbow (I see it and immediately like it)

Check, Check, Bets the pot.....someone has bet the pot against my preflop raise....I reraise all-in...opponent calls....he flips over A8s........I spike a 3rd king on the river which amounted to nothing but overkill

Later....same situation....I had AK and got reraised all-in by AJ....once again I win.

BUT HERE'S WHAT ELSE HAPPENED

I have AA....$3 preflop raise, 2 callers

flop 5, K, 8

I bet the pot...get reraised all in and I call....set of 5s wins


So, I have real difficulty in judging what these moves mean. Usually, by the time people have called my raises...there's already $10 in the pot which pretty much makes me pot committed if I do bet the pot. That means that check-raising me on the flop loses part of its value....the chance that I'll fold.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 04, 2002, 01:21 PM
(#11)
Deleted user
Well, if they are check-raising you all-in with worse hands such as top pair, then I don't see what you are doing wrong when you call and happen to be against a set. Only way you could fold in those cases would be if you picked up a reliable tell.

Money can't be that deep if it is possible to check-raise all-in on flop, so I wonder why you are playing so loose aggressive anyway. Usually not a good idea unless money is really deep.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 04, 2002, 01:38 PM
(#12)
Deleted user
Noodles....my standard raise 1 BB in order to shallow out the money. I want to shallow out the money for when I have good hands. It also means that bluffs carry more weight since they not ridiculous pot overbets.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 04, 2002, 03:05 PM
(#13)
Deleted user
Upon thinking about it some more, is shallowing out the money the better idea...or trying to raise when deep.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 04, 2002, 05:04 PM
(#14)
Deleted user
If you are showing a profit in the long term, then your method in thise games against those opponents can't really be argued with.

I noticed that somebody said you played very well post flop, so shallowing out the money like this is really to your opponents advantage. If you are superior post flop then you want as many betting rounds as possible rather than enabling people to get all-in on the flop by shallowing out the money like this. Doing that would reduce your edge in that case.

With very deep money, say 200X BB stacks, you can make very loose preflop raises. But not too high, just a normal amount. Just enough to build the pot so that you are able to bring all your opponents stack into play by the river, should a good situation arrive, without having to overbet the pot to do so. Assuming you have superior skills to your opponents post flop.

On games of only 100X BB stacks, then it isn't a good idea to do this. The profit isn't there to play trash, (especially when there is no real room for a river bluff like there would be on 200X BB stacks), and their stack is already in play by the river without having to build the pot with speculative hands preflop.

Based on what you say about shallowing out the money, I would say that you were scrared of post flop play, rather than being superior, but I haven't seen you play like that other person has. What is your reason for such large raises preflop, and are you superior to these players post flop?
 
Old
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Thu Dec 05, 2002, 11:46 AM
(#15)
Deleted user
Noodles,

I would say that I play all types of things: top, middle, and lower pairs and st8 and flush draws well post flop (I still make some real bonehead plays). But, in my own evaluation, playing big hands (such as aa, kk) make me uncomfortable post flop (I don't think I'm very good at judging when to lay down AA or KK, etc.). Obviously, the majority of hands that I play are not aa, kk; but I do have trouble with them because I normally do not go all-in on a pair normally, but, for some reason, I feel that my whole stack is vulnerable with AA and the other premium hands.
 
Old
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Thu Dec 05, 2002, 01:02 PM
(#16)
Deleted user
Play it like you play any top pair on the flop onwards, when on very deep money. Do not build the pot unnecessarily post flop, keep it small, so that you can call a river bet, should you wish to do so,
without it bringing your whole stack into play.

AA and KK go way down in value in games with very, very deep money. i.e. Where the possibility of getting all-in preflop or on the flop is greatly reduced (without doing what you have been doing). How you should play it preflop depends on how you play other hands preflop. You certainly don't want to telegraph your hand if the money is deep enopugh for river betting to still be possible.

In games where the stacks are deep enough to allow river betting, on teh flop an unimproved AA or KK is just 1 pair and should be played as such. If it is bet to you, you do not raise and build a big pot that puts your whole stack in danger by the river etc. keep the pot small postflop so your whole stack does not come into play, (assuming money is that deep).
 
Old
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Thu Dec 05, 2002, 05:53 PM
(#17)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by diej2002
But, in my own evaluation, playing big hands (such as aa, kk) make me uncomfortable post flop (I don't think I'm very good at judging when to lay down AA or KK, etc.). <snip> for some reason, I feel that my whole stack is vulnerable with AA and the other premium hands.
If this is really the case, you ought to try and do your gambling before the flop. Make your standard sized raise, hope someone's got a big enough hand to play back at you, and then put them in for all their chips. But in the event that you have aces and someone calls with a pair of fives only to flop a set, it's gonna be pretty tough to credit him for that set before it costs you some of your chips, if not all of them.

But it's important to remember that you might not be playing your aces and kings as poorly as you might think. After all, unless it's late in a tournament and you're short-stacked and have to play almost any kind of hand to avoid being eaten alive by the blinds, it'll be the good hands that cripple you -- not the bad ones.

You won't find yourself getting eliminated from a tournament early on with hands like J-9, because they're easily released. And even good hands can be released in the face of a big bet from an apparent flush or straight -- or even a flop that produces three cards right there in the "playing zone," making it likely that your opponent has two pair, if not a straight.

But when the flop is ragged, or uncoordinated, and the cards, when examined in combination, portend no danger at all, that's when you're vulnerable to someone having flopped a set. And you're vulnerable precisely because the flop provides no clue at all about its danger. Moreover, some of the time there isn't much you can do about it, unless you want to begin releasing big pairs to a bet and raise everytime someone plays with you. You almost always have to allow yourself to make some mistakes in judgement at the edges of your playing area, to preclude making mistakes in the vast middle ground, where most hands are played most of the time.
 
Old
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Fri Dec 06, 2002, 10:53 AM
(#18)
Deleted user
Good stuff, Dean.

Can I call you that, Mr. Krieger?
 
Old
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Fri Dec 06, 2002, 04:29 PM
(#19)
Deleted user
from what I read here, I think I like your play. But, if you can afford to play in bigger games, you probably won't get called so much pre-flop. the higher the stakes, the fewer the weak players.

I haven't been playing online for real money, but guess I"ll start because one of the guys who plays in live games with us tells me he is $8,000 ahead.
 
Old
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Fri Dec 06, 2002, 05:05 PM
(#20)
Deleted user
Thanks to all who have replied so far, especially Dean Kreiger. It is great to have a dean who is so in touch with the students and makes himself personally accessible to the student body.

Anyway, I'm playing a tournament and I found, unfortunately, a perfect illustration of this. Keep in mind that I am about 95% certain that this guy doesn't have the flush (his pattern did not indicate someone who had just flopped a flush, but I knew that he might bluff at it...I'd been with this guy for the whole tournament and watched him play)....At the end...all I'm thinking is that this guy is trying to bluff the flush...here goes:

Starting hand #11341266
>>>DEALING HOLE CARDS<<<
diej2002 dealt down Qh Qc
knobla posts the small blind $100
MyTurn posts the big blind $200
krb folds
Carmello folds
Scootjb folds
polymaj03 calls $200
diej2002 raises $600 to $800
Scarz folds
mystre folds
RIVERC calls $800
knobla folds
MyTurn folds
polymaj03 calls $600
>>>DEALING FLOP<<< [ Td 2d 5d ]
polymaj03 checks
diej2002 checks
RIVERC checks
>>>DEALING TURN<<< [ 6h ]
polymaj03 checks
diej2002 bets $2,950
RIVERC calls $2,950
polymaj03 folds
>>>DEALING RIVER<<< [ Ks ]
diej2002 checks
RIVERC bets $8,850
diej2002 calls $8,850
RIVERC shows cards 6s 6c

This would be a good hand for the hand analysis tool, I wish it was working. I had 3.5k after this hand was over, I think.
 

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