Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Poker Education & Beginners Questions /

Shove / Fold charts - not understanding short stack effective

Old
Default
Shove / Fold charts - not understanding short stack effective - Wed Jan 08, 2014, 02:32 AM
(#1)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi,

During a recent live training session, a link to a shove / fold chart was open for discussion for questions about hands during training.

Today I looked at it after I made a utg shove 4 handed bubble play (3 get payed) and tried to use the chart later live (in a browser window) as the mistakes I make short handed may need some help!

Sorry about the preamble. So what does the 10bb - 2bb chart / player number, actually mean?

1) Is the 10bb, 8bb or 2bb the effective stack behind you and no limp or raise pre flop when short stacked. Used less than 10bb here btn vs blinds. Not happy but I did it My Way to the money and then looked at the chart?

2) Then the number of players 8 - 2 then sb? So action in front zero and behind sb completes? So shove the chart range, now 4 handed wanting head's up with the player on my right (dynamic reads), used the chart from the sb A2s vs bb.

This post is beginners and comment from other PSO members about charts / huds etc..

I probably made mistakes using this chart? But how far wrong misunderstanding points #1 @ #2 and then the usual bubble spot in the first boom hand.

Do we trust tools, huds and chart over the dynamics of the table. "The lag turned into a nit once they sucked out 3 times"

Last edited by ForrestFive; Wed Jan 08, 2014 at 02:39 AM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Jan 08, 2014, 04:17 AM
(#2)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Effective stack size is the shortest stack of anyone still with live cards. This could be you, someone that already entered the pot, or someone still to act, such as the blinds. Since your stack is the shortest in the first hand you linked, the effective stack is yours: 9bb.

The numbers refer to how many players your shove needs to get through if you are to pick up the blinds/antes uncontested. e.g. If you are in the SB, you can shove wider, because you only need to get the shove through 1 player, so there's less chance of being called by a better hand. In earlier positions, you have more players to get past, so your range needs to be stronger.
With 9bb UTG 4-handed, your shove needs to get through 3 players. With AJ, it's an obvi-shove. Indeed, you could shove that hand UTG with a full table.

In the second hand, you're in the SB with an effective stack of 10bb, and are the shortest stack by far. Jamming A2s is totally standard there. Indeed it's unexploitable. Even if you showed villain your holecards, so that he only called with better hands, you'd make money in the long run, primarily because he'd be folding so often.

Push ranges are largely based on the Nash game theory optimal equilibrium. If you make GTO shoves, your opponents cannot exploit you by altering their calling or folding frequencies. In short, you make money from their mistakes.


Bracelet Winner

Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Wed Jan 08, 2014 at 04:24 AM..
 
Old
Default
Wed Jan 08, 2014, 04:51 AM
(#3)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
These shove/fold charts are supposed to be unexploitable - that means no matter how your opponents play, these shove/fold ranges will always be +EV. However, unexploitable does not equal optimal.

If your opponents are playing tighter, you can widen your shoving ranges, particularly from the SB when it often becomes correct to shove any two cards if the effective stack is short (but not desperate) and the villain is too tight.

If your opponents are calling really wide (which very few do), then you can tighten up these ranges and focus more on shoving the combos with high cards, remove some of the suited connector-type hands.

The charts are based on an unopened pot, with x players to act behind you. Doesn't take limps, min-raises into account
 
Old
Default
Wed Jan 08, 2014, 05:14 AM
(#4)
s3n_dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 58
BronzeStar
Nash= 0EV= unexploitable-> not necessarily a + Ev range
 
Old
Default
Wed Jan 08, 2014, 05:47 AM
(#5)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by s3n_dan View Post
Nash= 0EV= unexploitable-> not necessarily a + Ev range
Yes I realised that as soon I reread my post - the rest of the post still stands though
 
Old
Default
Wed Jan 08, 2014, 06:36 PM
(#6)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Thanks for the replies guys.


Looks like I was using the chart correctly. The sb row meant one player to act behind (bb) and we are seated in the sb.

Once itm in this tourney I felt comfortable just using the chart. It took away me actually thinking about my shove decisions.

Though this may work against me if I fail to notice a very loose caller or big stack prone to spite call. Need to tighten range then probably.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com