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25NL 6Max Zoom - Rivered two pair gets raised

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25NL 6Max Zoom - Rivered two pair gets raised - Thu Jan 09, 2014, 06:50 AM
(#1)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496


Villain: 24/19 AF: 0.69 WTSD: 29% (224 hands)

I thought this hand was going pretty swimmingly, just extracting value from a worse Qx or a flush draw. The river is a brilliant card, negating any two pairs he was slowplaying and and flush didn't come.

So I continued to value bet the river and my opponent tanked for 45 seconds into his time bank and raised. I assumed his range was pretty polarized between sets and bluffs (missed flush draw?). Wouldn't sets have played a bit faster on the flop or turn?

What should I do?
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 09:50 AM
(#2)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Snap this off once he tanks.
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 12:26 PM
(#3)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
Snap this off once he tanks.
Why would you call because he tanked? Would you fold then if he snap raised, i normally tank most rivers where i have value to work out the best sizing to get value from the opps range and if i think its pretty strong il over bet jam the river.
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 12:29 PM
(#4)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
If he is a multi-tabler he could very easily be tanking at another table rather than this one so is that even that great a tell unless we know he is one tabling?
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 01:13 PM
(#5)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
If he is a multi-tabler he could very easily be tanking at another table rather than this one so is that even that great a tell unless we know he is one tabling?
I did try find out, but villain had himself blocked from searches.
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 01:14 PM
(#6)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Request evaluation.
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 01:21 PM
(#7)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by spand42 View Post
I did try find out, but villain had himself blocked from searches.
That in itself makes me think he probaby is a multi-tabler, as most people who hide from search are at least a little reg-ish, the tell might still be legitimate of course, but it would diminish the significance of it for me as at least some of the time is taken up by decisions on other tables.

I can't see the hand itself because this poxy device doesn't have flash so will have to wait until later to offer anything more worthwhile (Probably only worthwhile to myself ).
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 02:58 PM
(#8)
Homerindoors's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 1
i think id call this,i cant see villain not raising flop or turn with a set , and not value betting river. A smaller 2 pair looks more likely or complete air.(possibly Ax 2 spades)
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 03:09 PM
(#9)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
I think this will be more often an slowplayed set than a bluff since you have showed a lot of strenght betting 3 streets. Also i don't think flop and turn are that draw heavy for villain to be check raising a set always, i would slowplay as well since i expect a reg to cbet that flop 100% of the times with garbage. Don't think a reg would check raise worst two pair here.
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 10:50 PM
(#10)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
When they tank that long (ie past the timebank) they almost never have the nuts from my experience.

It's either;

a) A bluff
b) A very thin raise for value, which I believe with top 2 we are usually ahead of.
 
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Thu Jan 09, 2014, 11:43 PM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by spand42 View Post
So I continued to value bet the river and my opponent tanked for 45 seconds into his time bank and raised. I assumed his range was pretty polarized between sets and bluffs (missed flush draw?). Wouldn't sets have played a bit faster on the flop or turn?
There might also be some AsXs in the villain's range, like AsTs, AsJs ... and other AQ I guess. Although, with an AF of 0.69, guess you'd only expect the villain to be reraising the river with AQ or a set.

Do you have the villain's w$sd stat handy by any chance Spand? Is it higher than normal like the wtsd? Or especially low?

Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Jan 09, 2014 at 11:59 PM..
 
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Fri Jan 10, 2014, 05:58 AM
(#12)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Do you have the villain's w$sd stat handy by any chance Spand? Is it higher than normal like the wtsd? Or especially low?
1/7 or ~14%
 
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Fri Jan 10, 2014, 05:59 AM
(#13)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Request eval
 
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Fri Jan 10, 2014, 06:33 AM
(#14)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
I don't think he is bluffing there. With other two pairs hand's I don't think he ever raises here. It's value bet, against your A. I think .
 
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Fri Jan 10, 2014, 07:25 AM
(#15)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Request eval
 
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Fri Jan 10, 2014, 11:38 AM
(#16)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
I get the impression you are requesting an evaluation of this poker hand!

Do we have villain's AF by street pls? And flop check-raise %?
 
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Fri Jan 10, 2014, 11:53 AM
(#17)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi Andy,

This is actually a nice spot to bluff raise us, the only easy calls we have are AQ and sets. Although I don't expect a guy with this AF to c/r bluff the river much, I too feel like ruling out sets when he doesn't raise flop or turn and tanks river makes sense. He could raise As6s/As2s thinking it's for value, or be doing something weird with Ax of spades... the whole line makes no sense, and when I'm near the top of my range vs. a line that makes no sense, I call them down.


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Fri Jan 10, 2014, 11:55 AM
(#18)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
I know - I keep forgetting to untick the box and I keep reviewing my own hand

Flop X/r - 0/4

Flop AF: 0.85 AFQ: 35
Turn AF: 0.25 AFQ: 9
River AF: 1.00 AFQ: 22
 
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Fri Jan 10, 2014, 11:57 AM
(#19)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaRLoS_DZ87 View Post
I think this will be more often an slowplayed set than a bluff since you have showed a lot of strenght betting 3 streets. Also i don't think flop and turn are that draw heavy for villain to be check raising a set always, i would slowplay as well since i expect a reg to cbet that flop 100% of the times with garbage.
I don't disagree on the flop, but once we barrel the turn it's much more likely we have a hand, so raising the turn makes great sense with a set to get value from KQ/AQ/KK/AA and any flush draws we have.


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Fri Jan 10, 2014, 02:31 PM
(#20)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
I don't disagree on the flop, but once we barrel the turn it's much more likely we have a hand, so raising the turn makes great sense with a set to get value from KQ/AQ/KK/AA and any flush draws we have.
I agree, thought this days seems like regs are more aware off turn check-raises on dry boards, baluga theorem etc, that taking a different approach once in a while can pay off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Hi Andy,

This is actually a nice spot to bluff raise us
Really? what hands you expect to 3barrel/fold other than bluffs that can find a fold a decent % of the time? We probably check A7 at some point, I mean he would have to think we can fold A2, As6s easily here, our bet size also doesn't look like we are value betting a pair of A to get paid by QK.

Don't know if you mean specifically vs us that we can find a though fold, assuming he knows us. I do agree that vs a bad aggro reg guy we are in our top of our range to bluff catch.
 

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