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Big Bang - Top set, but awkward stack size

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Big Bang - Top set, but awkward stack size - Sat Jan 11, 2014, 02:57 PM
(#1)
Christxof's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 256
Big Bang. Around 200 players left, 144 get paid. Villain 1 was loose-passive.



Flopping top set in a multi-way pot is a great result with pocket Jacks, but the stack-size to pot ratio was awkward, and the board was wet, so I wasn't sure how to proceed. Any sort of bet committed me, and an overshove might drive people out, which I DIDN'T want with this holding. So I decided to check with the intention of shoving over any bet. I managed to get this.

Was this the right line? Or should I have overshoved the flop?

Also, I do not want JWK to be the one to analyze this - his analyses usually feel like they treat the asker as if they're a complete beginner to me. This is good when the asker is brand new, but not when they've been around for a few years.
 
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Sun Jan 12, 2014, 05:37 AM
(#2)
MyNumber7's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 36
You decided to check here with intention of shoving over any bet, but what if all checks after you and turn will be a diamond or Q? Wasnt scared of that board full of draws? In this spot I would shove.

P.S.
JWK is one of the best HA here and its not about him but about you (your ego). IMO his analysis are simple, clear and easy understandable to everyone. I play poker for about 5,5 years and my head is full of this game details but still everytime I feel like a begginer who needs to learn a lot. I am even happy when I can repeat betting patterns which looks obvious but most of us forget them Simplicity is perfection.

Last edited by MyNumber7; Sun Jan 12, 2014 at 05:54 AM..
 
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Sun Jan 12, 2014, 10:59 AM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
Any sort of bet commits you, but you have the nuts! Why don't you want to get commited?
I see stack sizes are a little weird. Check-shove is OK, but I'd prefer to bet flop (like 1500), shove turn, because giving a free card to the many draws on this board would be disasterous. Since villains will also be committed if they call a half-pot bet, they are likely to shove over a bet with draws anyway, so you'll often be bet-calling and printing money. Open-shoving the flop is probably fine too, as in a multiway pot like this, you'd be pretty happy to force the draws to fold in order to double your stack without a sweat.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Sun Jan 12, 2014, 02:44 PM
(#4)
Christxof's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyNumber7 View Post
You decided to check here with intention of shoving over any bet, but what if all checks after you and turn will be a diamond or Q? Wasnt scared of that board full of draws? In this spot I would shove.

P.S.
JWK is one of the best HA here and its not about him but about you (your ego). IMO his analysis are simple, clear and easy understandable to everyone. I play poker for about 5,5 years and my head is full of this game details but still everytime I feel like a begginer who needs to learn a lot. I am even happy when I can repeat betting patterns which looks obvious but most of us forget them Simplicity is perfection.
Thanks for your input. Honestly, I don't like overshoving the pot - it feels too strong to me, and it always feels like people will fold if I'm strong and call if I'm bluffing. Obviously this is the wrong way to feel; I guess it's paranoia.

And JWK is a great hand analyst and probably a great player (I've only seen him a few times in play money games, so I can't accurately tell for sure), don't get me wrong. And for tons of micro-stakes and low-stakes spots, his analyses are very helpful and accurate. However, to me, it sometimes seems that JWK is giving confusing advice - he doesn't like people playing tricky in almost any case, which when playing against most fish is absolutely fine and probably ideal advice. But at the same time, he advocates not giving post-flop bet-sizing tells in the same situations, when those same types of fish generally don't pay attention to that.

Someone can probably prove me wrong on this, though, and if you can, please DO prove me wrong. I highly respect JWK and don't want to have misconceptions about his advice.
 
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Sun Jan 12, 2014, 05:24 PM
(#5)
ChewMe1's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 574
Hi Christxof

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
Any sort of bet commits you, but you have the nuts! Why don't you want to get commited?
I see stack sizes are a little weird. Check-shove is OK, but I'd prefer to bet flop (like 1500), shove turn, because giving a free card to the many draws on this board would be disasterous. Since villains will also be committed if they call a half-pot bet, they are likely to shove over a bet with draws anyway, so you'll often be bet-calling and printing money. Open-shoving the flop is probably fine too, as in a multiway pot like this, you'd be pretty happy to force the draws to fold in order to double your stack without a sweat.
This ^

My preferred method of action would be to bet half the pot and either call the rest off or shove the turn. Check raising is fine but on the off chance that it checks round and something like the Qd hits... I prefer to bet flop.

Cheers, Arty and Chris!
 
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Sun Jan 12, 2014, 05:46 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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I agree with Arty and Chris too.
My whole goal here... how do I get their chips into the middle, because I'm definitely not folding.
Made a very similar play last night actually, but I had 2BB more and bet 2/3 pot. Got call then a shove after me, so got it in by calling the opp's flop shove. By doing the 2/3 pot, got paid off an extra 2/3 pot too.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon Jan 13, 2014, 01:26 AM
(#7)
Christxof's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 256
So it seems most of you recommend the line of committing yourself without shoving, and then getting all the rest of the money in later. Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely look into the line. Guess the whole "pot-committed" theory messed with my head and made me dislike betting that way. Need to get out of it.

Also, I once again apologize for any negative implications my original post may have said. I meant nothing of the sort, and I am very grateful for the advice.
 
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Mon Jan 13, 2014, 03:28 AM
(#8)
IBNash's Avatar
Since: Oct 2013
Posts: 177
54 from the money and 17BBs deep, you did not raise JJ UTG to fold after making a set? If the wet flop worried me, I'd shove. If they make a flush/straight calling it, nh. The board could and indeed did pair in this case.

I'd bet 50-66% of pot looking to get it in on the Turn.
 
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Mon Jan 13, 2014, 12:06 PM
(#9)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christxof View Post
Also, I once again apologize for any negative implications my original post may have said. I meant nothing of the sort, and I am very grateful for the advice.
Absolutely not a problem. No offence taken.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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