Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

5NL 6m zoom – JJ - Raising flop with OP

5NL 6m zoom – JJ - Raising flop with OP - Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:18 AM
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Villain: 132 hands, 22/19/4, fAF:5, CB:6/8, WWSF:6/12, fold3b:5/8

Did I make a stupid play when raising OTF instead of calling?

I hardly ever, if ever, do this play. I have understood that this is called as value owning myself.

There are some reasons to raise imo. 1. I have the best hand most of the time 2. draws will call 3. there are scary cards QKA to come OTT

Plan was to play hand quite aggressively if he calls.

Raise size was an experiment only.

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

Button ($5)
Hero (SB) ($11.09)
BB ($5.10)
UTG ($20.93)
MP ($14.61)
CO ($9.98)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J
2 folds, CO raises to $0.15, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.13, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.35) 9, 7, 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.35, Hero raises to $0.76
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 12:25 PM
Buffaloon's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 29
I actually think even more than draws can call here because of the raise size. TT is probably calling and a lot of opponents will peel with AK, AQ. Maybe worse if he has Aclubs. So for this reason I think I like raising for value.
Unfortunately I can't work out what I'm doing if he 4bets us. Can he 4bet us with TT or AK or 2 clubs? I'm honestly not sure. Did you have a plan when he 4bets in the hand? Because general advice seems to be if you aren't sure of the profitable play if he does 4bet, a call is better. For this reason, I personally would flat the flop, and actually call a barrel on any one of the scary turn cards as I reckon he can barrel a K with AQ for example, folding on the river if I get 3 barrelled. I'm not sure if this is correct, just trying to throw in my 2 cents a little more in the forum to aid my own training.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 01:23 PM
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Good points, great to read. Takes some time to digest.

My plan was fold to 3b, as I assume that hands to re-raise us will have at worst 50% equity (flush draw). Imo at 5NL zoom tag he would only called even with KK. Hmm, Ahi draws he would have probably betted in, as his style seems to be bet or fold and flush draw in zoom is the best hand for most.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 01:44 PM
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Dont his pot size bet put you off raising?

If you raising to fold a 3bet then do it with a trash hand not JJ.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 03:43 PM
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Actually it was the pot size bet which triggered this line. I would have called QQ, but JJ I felt was too weak to just call call against aggressive player who would probably chase me away from the pot.
Thu Jan 16, 2014, 11:02 PM
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Hi Brave,

I would have called QQ, but JJ I felt was too weak to just call call against aggressive player who would probably chase me away from the pot.
If this is your concern, then I think check/raising and bloating the pot oop actually makes it easier for an aggro player to chase you away as he can now confront you with bet sizings you aren't prepared to call down with much easier. Going to the flop it's a very high SPR spot since we started 200bb's deep effective and it's a single raised pot. If he's aggro enough you could really check/call 3 streets and not get confronted with a stack decision... something no longer possible when you check/raise.

Another option is to bet the flop rather than check/raise. This allows you to deny a free card option, and take a bet/bet/bet line for value vs. 9x, 88, etc. And if you get raised, the money is still deep enough that you can bet/call then go into check/call mode and not get confronted for stacks. When you check/raise, it opens up the door for him to bet/3B and get a lot of money in on the flop, which is probably not good for us when it comes... too many QQ+, sets, and big draws for us to play this big a pot so we should probably fold when he 3-bets the flop. But bet/call, c/c, c is better I think as is c/c 3 streets vs. a very aggressive opponent, on this depth of money.

Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner

Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:38 AM
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Hi dave, good answer.

I try to integrate your words to my though process, for now on I will try to just call and maybe try that donk in some situation. It's gonna be hard to re-learn donks

It seems there is a new group (maybe old but new to me) forming who are push TAGs, they will do pot/over bets 2 to 3 streets with AK,AJ or similar, they are very hard to combat when you have so little prior knowledge about them. who is who.

Villain here instafolded.

Last edited by braveslice; Fri Jan 17, 2014 at 10:45 AM..

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com