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Loose play results in trouble - 5NL zoom

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Loose play results in trouble - 5NL zoom - Thu Jan 16, 2014, 04:08 PM
(#1)
rkleefstra's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,328


Unknown villain

Pre
Hero bet 3BB
Villain raises to 10BB
Hero calls

Flop :
Villain overbets with a 125%pot bet
It really looked like he wants me to fold so I believed he had a-high hand, or str8-draw.
It looked really (semi-)bluffy and a little weird to me, so I called to see what would happen on the turn.

Turn:
Villain overbets again massively well over 2 times pot.
Same idea, looks like "I have A-high and I want you out".
With my pair I'm well in front of that range...so call ?

I know I played this very loose and deffo not winning in the long run, but does my thinking make any sence?

Is this a line people could do with an A-high / draw-kind of hand?
I can't believe someone would play this line with overpairs, pair of J, pair of 10 or a set. You just drive all the value out...
 
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Thu Jan 16, 2014, 07:23 PM
(#2)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
I think you know your preflop play wasn't that good. Opening from UTG with 87s is pretty loose and when the BB 3Bets vs the UTG open, he's probably doing this with a very strong range and I doubt you're really getting the implied odds to call.

You flop a flush draw with a gutter. When villain bets like this, I think a lot of his range consists of made hands (say AA-TT) that don't want to see a turn card. He might also have a hand like AK with one or two diamonds that he's trying to play in a scary way.

I don't really like calling as you're not really getting decent odds to hit on the turn and you're likely going to face a fairly big turn bet. I think you can make a strong case for shoving all in here. Against his pure value range (AA-TT), you have 41% equity but you need to see both turn and river to realise this possibility. By shoving you also leverage fold equity - your hand is so poor right now that any fold he makes is going to be with a better hand. He'll likely fold overcards with no diamonds (maybe apart from KQ) and PPs like 77-99.

I think folding is also possible, but shoving is the more +EV play.
 
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Fri Jan 17, 2014, 03:12 AM
(#3)
rkleefstra's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by spand42 View Post
I think you know your preflop play wasn't that good. Opening from UTG with 87s is pretty loose and when the BB 3Bets vs the UTG open, he's probably doing this with a very strong range and I doubt you're really getting the implied odds to call.

You flop a flush draw with a gutter. When villain bets like this, I think a lot of his range consists of made hands (say AA-TT) that don't want to see a turn card. He might also have a hand like AK with one or two diamonds that he's trying to play in a scary way.

I don't really like calling as you're not really getting decent odds to hit on the turn and you're likely going to face a fairly big turn bet. I think you can make a strong case for shoving all in here. Against his pure value range (AA-TT), you have 41% equity but you need to see both turn and river to realise this possibility. By shoving you also leverage fold equity - your hand is so poor right now that any fold he makes is going to be with a better hand. He'll likely fold overcards with no diamonds (maybe apart from KQ) and PPs like 77-99.

I think folding is also possible, but shoving is the more +EV play.

Tnx Andrew. I knew I played it way too loose pre
With shoving you mean "shove on the flop" , right? or do you mean call his shove?
 
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Fri Jan 17, 2014, 10:17 AM
(#4)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
I wouldn’t say opening 87s is too loose, the book I read now gives standard opening range for UTG starting from 76s, they disregard 22 and 33 from the range giving room for 76s and 87s.

rkleefstra, totally agree with your assertion. There is a small problem, some 30% time he has OP/set, or strong draw, maybe overlapping with your draw. Flush draw really is the best hand there is in NL5.

Hi Andrew,
Why is that you say calling 3b IP is wrong. Shouldn’t we go by the rule of 20x?

Great you said to shove, that wasn’t even my thoughts. I try to remember that, and give it a go (3BI )

Last edited by braveslice; Fri Jan 17, 2014 at 10:24 AM..
 
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Fri Jan 17, 2014, 11:18 AM
(#5)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveslice View Post
I wouldn’t say opening 87s is too loose, the book I read now gives standard opening range for UTG starting from 76s, they disregard 22 and 33 from the range giving room for 76s and 87s.
I am a nit . I just feel that hands like that can be tricky to play OOP and you'll have to make many tricky postflop decisions. At 5NL I'd rather just play for simpler value spots!

Quote:
Originally Posted by braveslice View Post
Hi Andrew,
Why is that you say calling 3b IP is wrong. Shouldn’t we go by the rule of 20x?
Technically you're not getting the rule of 20x, you're calling a $0.35 raise with the effective stack of $6.80.

But IMO that's beside the point. I take rules like that with a pinch of salt and use them as a very general guideline that needs to be adapted for different situations. I think BB's range is typically going to be very strong here and we're going to be folding the majority of flops as villain's CBetting range will be pretty close to 100%.

If you had reads that the villain would likely stack off with an overpair on a 3-flush board or he might check/fold the flop a fair bit of the time after 3Betting, then I would be more inclined to call.
 

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