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10nl zoom 6m - TP on wet board vs casual, not sure where I stand ... river line?

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10nl zoom 6m - TP on wet board vs casual, not sure where I stand ... river line? - Sat Feb 01, 2014, 05:41 PM
(#1)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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This is kind of a fun hand ...

Am interested to hear peoples' thoughts, since sometimes it's hard to see things in your own hand? This isn't a line I usually take, so if people think it was sub-optimal, please feel free to say so - would really appreciate the honesty.


Thought the villain's most likely holding was Qx? Although it seemed like J9 (for the straight) or a small flush was an outside possibility. But didn't think it too likely the villain had a boat, which is what I guess I was trying to represent?

Guess I just wasn't too sure about the villain's kicker, if the villain had Qx - whether mine was ahead, or whether KQ might be tied or even behind ... felt like AQ and KQ would fold to a shove?

But you think maybe it would have been better to just call behind? Or re-raise (with the intention of folding to a shove), in case the villain had a lesser kicker ... or a better hand, including a better kicker, and didn't fold?


Had to re-install Windows a couple of days ago, which meant having to set up ALL my PokerStars settings from scratch - think that's got me a little out of sorts ... hence this atypical river shove. You think it was maybe sub-optimal?

Thanks so much for the help everybody - eager to hear peoples' thoughts



Last edited by TrustySam; Sat Feb 01, 2014 at 05:56 PM..
 
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Sat Feb 01, 2014, 08:58 PM
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TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,487
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Hi Sam,

I tend to agree that villain is pretty heavy in Qx here. I don't think we can tell this from the flop donk bet, because players do that with draws sometimes, but when the clubs come in and he bets small, it looks a lot more like QJ/Q9 to me, maybe KQ. Villain continued to your raise however so I'm guessing they felt like they had outs, QJ/Q9 perhaps with the J or 9 clubs. The river bet looks like a last ditch attempt to get the hand to showdown for what they think it's worth. Since you can beat pretty much all their Qx hands except KQ which you tie, I would probably just call here. On the chance we're mistaken. If however we held just the naked Ac, or a hand like AcTh, then I think there's a decent case for turning it into a bluff and moving in like this as I think he's only donking the river for $1.50 to avoid having to check/call a value bet of $2.50-$3.00, and with that mindset for the villain I expect this raise to get tons of folds.


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Sat Feb 01, 2014, 09:37 PM
(#3)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi Sam,

The @TheLangolier is in before me, so not going to do any ranging.

But sometimes I generalize opponents on bet sizing. Then we can confirm our line by telling a story if the villain is listening and at 10NL maybe they are?

I like that you stick to your guns and represent strength all the way. The spew thing I may do is raise the flop donk bet, any takers on that idea?


At first the lead bet size looks strongish. We need to protect a marginal spot where we can represent a better pre flop hand or draw in a non 3-bet pot with a villain calling sb oop.

As played the turn bet is the same size as the donk lead and so ( IMO now bad bet sizing and no stack top up, reads? ) "raise it up" as you did. Glad you stuck with it on the river and got the fold.
 
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Sun Feb 02, 2014, 07:55 AM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
haha - thought there was a chance the river shove might get some likes

Although Dave makes a great point - KQ is a hand we don't mind showing down. Never thought of shoving with Ac, although I've had people do it to me - my LeakBuster program's been encouraging me to bluff a little more, so maybe that's the kind of thing I could try out next?

On a good day, I'm not the most patient person - so on a not great day ... guess this villain's persistent little mini-donk bets must have gotten on my last nerve. Think that was responsible for my choice of line more than anything, so ... am really glad it worked too - may have dodged a bullet there

Thought about raising the flop Forrest Sometimes I would in that spot - guess I thought by checking behind, that'd give me the chance to see what the villain did on the turn? Although, you point out some really good reasons for why a raise might be preferable. Hmmm ... maybe this is one of those spots where there was more than one way to play, hopefully?


You both noticed stuff I didn't - that the villain's turn bet was the same size as the flop bet, and that for the villain to call my re-raise probably meant a Qx hand with a club. Think I was a little more worried about a straight or a flush than I should have been because of that, and that might have been part of what compelled me to shove.

Must have really been playing my c-game yesterday - hopefully I can do a little better today ... otherwise I may be back with more hands like this one lol


Thanks so much for the feedback Dave, Forrest - was great to hear your thoughts on the hand ... as always, it gave me a lot to think about, and I learned a lot!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Feb 02, 2014 at 07:58 AM..
 
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Sun Feb 09, 2014, 12:22 PM
(#5)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Dave, Forrest




 
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Sun Feb 09, 2014, 01:49 PM
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mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Dave, Forrest




If i was v5 and i know you bet your flushes on the turn i would snap call Qx
 
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Sun Feb 09, 2014, 03:53 PM
(#7)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
If i was v5 and i know you bet your flushes on the turn i would snap call Qx
It's a lot easier to bluff-catch when you can see the bluffer's hole cards, isn't it?

The villain's a profitable, straight-forward playing reg ... not sure why he check-called the flop rather than bet out, but he could just as easily be doing it with KQ, KJ, KT in addition to QJ, AQ. So when the turn bricks, I wouldn't double-barrel versus this villain since there's a fair number of hands in his range he wouldn't be folding.

Although you know what, as a general rule I'm not that crazy about bluffing regs when there's so many other players in the pool that are easier to win pots against - just because the regs are all so smart. Like it's just always seemed like it's a lot more EV to keep things really straight-forward and simple versus the better players?

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 04:15 PM..
 

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