Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Tournament Section (MTTs & STTs) /

The Big 11 : QQ in 3bet family pot : 4bet vs 3bet call/fold

The Big 11 : QQ in 3bet family pot : 4bet vs 3bet call/fold - Wed Feb 12, 2014, 06:00 PM
Marc Rae's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 505
Hi there

This is a hand I thought was quite interesting, and I feel I may have played this sub optimally in this scenario.

Villain 4 stats: 63 hands
total AF 6.7

Lag, has been caught out a few times already at this table with air.

Villain sees me as 10/8/15/25

Villain 6: 36 hands
Do have read preflop, he isn't folding to a raise when he enters the pot (had 25-30BB), but folded to a bet on the flop, twice HU.

Villain sees me as 8/6/7/0

SB Villain: 26 hands

Villain sees me as 12/9/16/33

The timing of SB's 3bet, made me think he was light, and was tempted to 4bet this initially. But with villain 4, I thought about calling, to try to keep him in, as he was very likely to call behind also, and stab at 1 or 2 streets, which I'd be OK to take a c/c line. I'd also be keeping in SB's range wide here as well, and with his stack behind him, he doesn't have much room after the flop.

I did not expect villain 6 call to complete the action, and I think this is why I played this wrong.

The cbet from sb_villain doesn't need to be much at all in a 4 way family 4b pot, besides he only had less than a pot size behind before the cbet.

I tanked to under 10 seconds left, as at the time only range that worried me here was villain 6. I couldn't pull the trigger.

The fact that villain6 and sb_villain folds to villain4's shove.. makes me think that the right play here was to 4bet in the first place.

Any thoughts on 4bet vs call 3bet/fold flop here?
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 03:23 AM
bungakat's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 41
Hey Marc
This should be 4bet shove preflop. There is so much chips in middle already so even if they are folding its alot to pick up. Also i think SB might just squeeze and Villain4 and Villain6 seems to be playing with pretty weak ranges, so i think there is even a chance you get a call by worse hand and beign in good shape. Also if you are calling with QQ here with thoughts Villain4 comes along then think of Villain6 price for calling... Villain6 price is good for call and i cant see Villain6 folding much in that spot. Now playing 3betted flop with QQ multiway is going to be a huges problem because your hand just wont get any better most of the times and 38% of time there will be A or K on flop while you havent hit your set so you end up folding. What im saying is that if you call there you might end up 4way pot giving 3 villains to get help from flop while you most of the time aint getting help from it. Again, just 4bet shove and hope for the best

Thu Feb 13, 2014, 04:49 AM
Marc Rae's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 505
Hi there bungakat, thanks for your comments. I think we'd both agree this is QQ played poorly.
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 07:04 AM
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
early stages big11 I don't think the 3bettor is light, he have some kind of a hand to get that value is to 4bet shove no need to slow play because of 2 players still left to act

I "might" "not sure" will only slow play in this kind if I have AA or KK to let others call behind

gl in your games Marc
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 07:43 AM
TarekGG's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 157
4bet shove pre
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 08:22 AM
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Originally Posted by TarekGG View Post
4bet shove pre
Thu Feb 13, 2014, 04:29 PM
ChewMe1's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 574
Hi Marc Rae

Typically I would expect the vast majority of villains to have AK/JJ+ but because we have evidence of villains bluffing tendencies I think that we ought to be shoving our hand all in.

Getting it all in for 50 big blinds early on in a tournament generally isn't a great spot to be in but because of the reads we have on villain 8 I think shoving is definitely best. There's already 1200 in the pot which we may even win uncontested.

As played I'm check/folding flop too. If it were a heads up pot then I would be happy to either call/shove but because there are 2 players left to act that could easily have a Kx hand, we should fold.

Cheers, Chris.
Sat Feb 15, 2014, 12:10 AM
Marc Rae's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 505
Thanks guys.

@marvinystan. I agree with the big11 comment, and in general this will be the case. But should have gone with the read I had on him, and went with it.

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com