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Gotta love it

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Gotta love it - Thu Feb 13, 2014, 05:32 AM
(#1)
Turtlesaur's Avatar
Since: Jan 2014
Posts: 23


so i wait til i get a decent hand to play, now how on earth do you make people with J7o and 49s drop their hands because regardless of how big is your raise, they never give up on their hands (preflo, thats why i try not preflop shove with.. well any hand in league lol).

tldr, my pocket K lost to 49s and J7o, what makes it worse one of those wouldnt let go his pair of 9's with 4 kicker... no seriously, how do you play this league
 
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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:10 AM
(#2)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
I would fold to that action on the turn.

Its a check-raise/reraise

It screams something better than a one pair hand.

I would not have been surprised to see a set there.

These players are very loose bad but not often making big bluffs post flop with air or weak holdings, even though they might call anything like third pair no kicker.

How you decide to play the leagues is your decision.

Sometimes I like to play as I would a normal MTT

in which case I would definitely fold the turn.

Or I might play super aggro - in which case I shove preflop and expect loose calls from A-rag and worse.

You cannot lose money playing the leagues.

Ed


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Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Thu Feb 13, 2014 at 06:13 AM..
 
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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:14 AM
(#3)
ouchbadbeat's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlesaur View Post

so i wait til i get a decent hand to play, now how on earth do you make people with J7o and 49s drop their hands because regardless of how big is your raise, they never give up on their hands (preflo, thats why i try not preflop shove with.. well any hand in league lol).
if you are facing a villain who literally wont fold to any shove, then shove pre is fine because it gets max value immediately
if facing spewy villains who will call raises but probably fold to a shove then an overbet pre is fine here, make it like 350

Quote:
tldr, my pocket K lost to 49s and J7o, what makes it worse one of those wouldnt let go his pair of 9's with 4 kicker... no seriously, how do you play this league
you need to jam this flop, the end result would be the same against J7o but your cbet doesnt really achieve anything - any hands that aren't beating you yet will have the correct price to draw to improve
 
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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:56 AM
(#4)
Turtlesaur's Avatar
Since: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
ty both for your responses

i usually dont jam 1 pair even if its pocket aces but these 2 guys were shoving left and right with pair of 10's with 3 kicker and stuff like that. I believe they played like 90% of hands so far in that tourney, and thats the only reason for my cbet (i thought my shove on flop would scare them and i was sure i had the best hand as both of them would just shove preflop with pocket jacks, they did it with A10o and A6o few hands ago).

but yes i also accept its my mistake, for putting too much faith in just a pair, and i would usually (like 99% of the time) drop it against most villains, just not these two :P

still my mistake though, as even some random person can easily hit something better than a pair so its a bad play from my side, obviously.

speaking of which, i could use some hints how to actually play this tourney and how to survive all those 6Jo 3bets, 4 bets shoves and stuff, because quite frankly knowing any of them could have ANY 2 cards, doesnt make you feel confy playing even trip aces :/

i was at like 200th place after first 10 or so tourneys but now its going downhill and doesnt look like its gonna stop any soon, because im afraid to play too many hands and even those few good hands i get, unless i improve postflop im not willing to call big raises anymore.

Heck there was a guy who called a shove with 73s today, on rainbow, wet flop vs pocket aces and he got 7 on the river. Now i understand that happens, but why on earth would you call a shove with pair of 7's with 3 kicker

cheers and many thanks for your response guys
 
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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 11:10 AM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,832
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Hi Turtlesaur!

The key here is the bet sizing... everything is WAY too small.

Preflop, I need to make a standard raise, which is to 3BB+1BB for each limper. With 2 limpers, I need to raise to 5BB or 300.

Bets postflop need to be sized based on the size of the pot, number of opps and board texture. With 2 opps, when it checks to me on the flop, I cannot bet less than 2/3 pot (540).

Betting too small gives the opps the right odds to be in the hand and if I give them the correct odds, it's my own fault that I lose the hand as I let the opp have a +EV play to beat me.

Good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)

P.S. To OBB, in a league game, I can't jam the flop here like I would in a cash tourney. It's too early to be all-in due to receiving negative league points. In a cash game, I'm jamming the flop so fast I'd make the opp's head spin.


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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 12:11 PM
(#6)
Turtlesaur's Avatar
Since: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
haha when i look at it now, i guess my bet sizing wasnt all that good either, so ty John and all the others

cheers

edit: btw today it wasnt that great day for me, at one point was 5BI down, and pretty much lost just about every shove for like 30 mins :/ i managed to get some back and now im just 1 BI down and done with poker for today (other than league obv :P) so i was thinking of posting all my hands (like 6 or 7) i lost with, thinking i might have made a few mistakes (obvious ones mind you, even to me but i want another opinion if possible?).

So could i like post all those hands somewhere, write my comments on what i think i have done wrong (not all were my fault though, i believe D) and have someone take a quick look at it?

Last edited by Turtlesaur; Thu Feb 13, 2014 at 12:23 PM..
 
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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 12:50 PM
(#7)
Cristela81's Avatar
Since: Jan 2014
Posts: 43
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Hi. I understand you very well. I'm fighting with the same things everyday in all tournaments. With KK, AA or QQ try not to shove unless you already have another shove. Your first mistakes was from the preflop raise. With 2 limpers your bet should have been 300 (3xBB+1xBB per limper). The next mistake was the preflop bet which was too small. Since their first move was to limp preflop that should have told you that their cards are very small and your preflop bet should have been much stronger (600 or even 800 chips). 120 chips it's an easy call, especially by those who are playing with lousy cards. Especially that it was possible a straw. They could have thought that you are on a straw and maybe they would have withdraw.

Here it is an example of those kind of villains which I met today in the 16:00 EET PSO tournament league.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=A4FDAFF8C5

The villain who made the big reraise was one that was shoving with any 2 cards preflop. I would have beaten if the other guy with suited connectors and big stack didn't got in the battle.
A few hands previous I dropped a pocket 8 to his shove. I wonder if that hand would have been better to play.

Last edited by Cristela81; Thu Feb 13, 2014 at 12:52 PM..
 
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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 01:14 PM
(#8)
Turtlesaur's Avatar
Since: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
wow ... he shoved with A7o, oh well looks like some people are happy to shove as long as they got any Ax or ANY 2 suited cards, and thats exactly why i didnt raise bigger preflop (imo, regardless of my raise size, they would call it, most likely they would call my preflop shove too).

So i dont think preflop shove would be smart move from my side, as in - im not sure it would change much there even if i had AA i wouldnt dare to do it preflop, really. It is a great hand and all that, but when you know two or more people will most likely call your shove, AA on its own is rarely good enough, and it was too early for shove anyways, imo

oh well ill be smarter next time, i guess i could also join limping feast and only shove if i get nuts, lol
 
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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 01:21 PM
(#9)
Cristela81's Avatar
Since: Jan 2014
Posts: 43
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Don't join the limping feast ... you'll be in more danger then. you'll have to face any marginal cards.
 
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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 02:08 PM
(#10)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlesaur View Post
So could i like post all those hands somewhere, write my comments on what i think i have done wrong (not all were my fault though, i believe D) and have someone take a quick look at it?
There are hand analysis forums for both cash hands and tourney hands. You can post any hands that you would like for us to review for you in them. Please limit it to one hand per thread and make sure to include all reads of how the opps are playing and if a tourney, what type of tourney.. as many of them have different strategies and we want to be able to get you the best reply possible.

John (JWK24)


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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 02:10 PM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristela81 View Post
Here it is an example of those kind of villains which I met today in the 16:00 EET PSO tournament league.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=A4FDAFF8C5

The villain who made the big reraise was one that was shoving with any 2 cards preflop. I would have beaten if the other guy with suited connectors and big stack didn't got in the battle.
A few hands previous I dropped a pocket 8 to his shove. I wonder if that hand would have been better to play.
AT from middle position is an open-muck in a league game. The only hands with an A that I'm playing and making a standard raise to 3BB+1BB for each limper are AA, AK and maybe, possibly AQ and even AQ is a very marginal play. All less aces are way too weak and need to be mucked immediately.

John (JWK24)


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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 02:11 PM
(#12)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlesaur View Post
any Ax or ANY 2 suited cards,
those are the two most common notes that I make on players.

Also, joining into a limpfest is not a good idea. Either make a standard raise or fold.

John (JWK24)


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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 02:15 PM
(#13)
Turtlesaur's Avatar
Since: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
AT from middle position is an open-muck in a league game. The only hands with an A that I'm playing and making a standard raise to 3BB+1BB for each limper are AA, AK and maybe, possibly AQ and even AQ is a very marginal play. All less aces are way too weak and need to be mucked immediately.

John (JWK24)
ty John, again

well, thats pretty much the way i play too, unless i get to see cheap flop as a bb. To some extent i play these tourneys even tighter than id play a normal tourney, not sure if thats wrong approach or not but usually ill make sure i get at least trips+ before im willing to bet bigger, early stages ofc.

also, ill post my hands today or tomorrow, playing league atm, still in it :P last 1,7k left so hopefully i can make it top 1k at least, got a healthy stack too, close to 20bb atm

cheers and many thanks again for your help, you guys are awesome
 
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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 02:21 PM
(#14)
Turtlesaur's Avatar
Since: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
those are the two most common notes that I make on players.

Also, joining into a limpfest is not a good idea. Either make a standard raise or fold.

John (JWK24)
btw thats the problem i see with these leagues... bet sizing doesnt mean pretty much anything to most people... regardless if you bet 38999bb or 4bb, if they want to see the flop with their A7o, your big cbet wont stop them from doing so

today was first league table in a while where i could actually play normally, people would fold their low/mid pair on reraises and such.. and big preflop raises would rarely get too many callers, if any. It was almost like playing a normal tourney I guess much depends on what kind of players u get at ur first few tables
 
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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 02:29 PM
(#15)
Cristela81's Avatar
Since: Jan 2014
Posts: 43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
AT from middle position is an open-muck in a league game. The only hands with an A that I'm playing and making a standard raise to 3BB+1BB for each limper are AA, AK and maybe, possibly AQ and even AQ is a very marginal play. All less aces are way too weak and need to be mucked immediately.

John (JWK24)
Ty John for advice. I don't even know why I played A10 in the first place ... since I know that all the time I'm playing A10 I'm losing the hand. ...
So far this is the hand with which I'm losing all the time. And with AJ too.
 
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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 02:43 PM
(#16)
Turtlesaur's Avatar
Since: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
oh well thats it got kicked out on 1100th place, had pocket 9's and like 7bb so couldnt wait any longer

still better than earlier today though, when i got kicked in like under 10 mins (
 
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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 02:49 PM
(#17)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlesaur View Post
had pocket 9's and like 7bb so couldnt wait any longer
I disagree. The ONLY way I'm pot-committed in a league game.. is when I get blinded in. Shoving with non premiums in these is a recipe for disaster for the monthly leaderboard... where the real $$ is.

John (JWK24)


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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 03:45 PM
(#18)
Turtlesaur's Avatar
Since: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
I disagree. The ONLY way I'm pot-committed in a league game.. is when I get blinded in. Shoving with non premiums in these is a recipe for disaster for the monthly leaderboard... where the real $$ is.

John (JWK24)
oh i see :/

so i should delay it even further, even if i would soon be down to like 3-4bb? I guess stalling does make sense in this league system though, but i read somewhere how places between 1,44k and top 90 dont make that big of a difference ? Maybe i got it all wrong, no idea really this league system is totally new to me so any hints and tips are much appreciated

also, once you are down to just a few bbs you cant actually make anyone fold and are more likely to have several callers, instead of just one, so once you are down to 1-2bb you are pretty much as good as gone, no? So im asking if its worth sacrificing a potential deep run, just to be placed 950th instead of 1100th?

cheers and many many thanks again John :
 
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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 04:12 PM
(#19)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlesaur View Post
, even if i would soon be down to like 3-4bb?
Every person I outlast, I get more points so it's much better to even blind out than it is to take a chance with something marginal.

John (JWK24)


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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:00 PM
(#20)
Turtlesaur's Avatar
Since: Jan 2014
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Every person I outlast, I get more points so it's much better to even blind out than it is to take a chance with something marginal.

John (JWK24)
thanks John, ill keep that in mind and play like hyper-tight from now on
 

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