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Up for discussion: BTN vs Blind Ranges

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Up for discussion: BTN vs Blind Ranges - Thu Feb 13, 2014, 09:50 AM
(#1)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Keen to get everyones' thoughts on these ranges that were recommended from Matt Janda.

Assumptions
  • Button minraises
  • 3bets are to 8bb
  • 4bets are to 16bb
  • SB has no flatting range
  • We are 100bb deep

SB 3B Range



BB 3B Range



BB Flatting Range



BTN Opening Range



BTN 3B Calling Range



BTN 4B Range

 
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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 10:37 AM
(#2)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
I reckon if you used that range it would burn a hole in your bankroll especially that BB flatting range, so what he is saying is we should be defending the BB vs BU with 60% of hands OOP. He might be able to do that because he might have some insane post flop skills.

What is missing from this hand chart is how to play that range post flop and thats where we would be making a ton of mistakes not knowing what to do with all those dominated hands.
 
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Thu Feb 13, 2014, 02:55 PM
(#3)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
There's a couple of assumptions you missed off:
  • Your opponent is competent (i.e. Defending his blinds widely enough and Opening widely enough)
  • You are a competent post-flop player

I'm sure these ranges are mathematically/GTO/empirically well thought out, but I almost never encounter situations where all of the assumptions are true.

What's important is the thought process that goes into creating these ranges and then adapting them for your particular spots. e.g. The smaller/wider the button opens, you should defend your BB very wide. If you've got nits in the blinds, you should open 100% of buttons until they adjust etc.
 
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Mon Apr 21, 2014, 03:07 PM
(#4)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
What about BTN vs. CO 3-bet and CC ranges?

I'm pretty sure my 3-betting is completely unbalanced...
Current overall 3-bet: 6.6
MP: 3.6
CO: 3.6
BTN: 5.3
SB: 10.4
BB: 6.0

Also my CC is a little messy too?
Overall CC: 10
MP: 6
CO: 6
BTN: 14
SB: 5
BB: 15
 
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Mon Apr 21, 2014, 03:43 PM
(#5)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
It depends what you mean by "balanced", dirt. It's fairly standard to have higher percentages for 3-bet in the blinds, and you can still balance your ranges (a weighted mix of value and bluffs) but the overall "playable" ranges are simply wider.

My CC numbers are fairly similar to yours, except I call in the BB like it's the best seat in the house. I love playing OOP.

FWIW, Janda has changed his pre-flop ranges a lot since writing his book. Personally, I hardly ever play offsuit cards out of position unless I have ridiculous pot odds.


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Mon Apr 21, 2014, 04:29 PM
(#6)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
Arty! What should our 3-bet stats look like in correspondence to BTN, SB, BB? for some reason my brain is telling me 3-bet the most from the BTN, then SB, then BB?

For example:
BTN: 9
SB: 6
BB: 3

or should it look like this...
BTN: 6
SB: 9
BB: 3
 
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Mon Apr 21, 2014, 07:12 PM
(#7)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
Lots of coaches say you should 3-bet more often when in position. In theory this makes sense ("position is king"), but in reality I don't think it's hugely +EV to turn a bunch of hands that are strong enough to call with in position into bluffs. Nor is it a good idea, in my opinion, to 3-bet total garbage when there are still 3 players with live cards.
There's also the practical matter of most players' MP and Cutoff ranges being a lot tighter (i.e. stronger) than their button ranges, so you don't get many ideal spots to attack a "wide range" if you're on the button.

I posted my latest stats in my blog thread. It's a small sample size, and I may increase my 3-betting frequencies in the near future, but I'm having good success only 3-betting 6% overall, mostly in the blinds. (Some of my other numbers may look completely weird to you. I'm not playing standard ABC TAG any more).

For now, my 3-bet stats are roughly...
MP: 2.5%
CO: 3%
BUT: 4%
SB: 7%
BB: 7%

These numbers are by no means "optimal" in either the GTO or EV sense. They are just statistics from a small sample. I'm still experimenting, and there's a lot of variance involved too. (I seem to have had AK a lot in the SB recently). Although I've done a lot of work on balancing my pre-flop ranges so that my hands play well against "randoms", there's still a lot of scope for making read-based exploitative plays. If you know, for example, that a villain opens 40% of cutoffs, and folds to 3-bets 70% of the time, you can pretty much 3-bet him with ATC. This means that there's not really an "ideal" number to aim for in your stats, because you should be altering your ranges on the fly depending on the situation. i.e. if you're on a regular table (not Zoom) with direct position on a frequent raise/folder, basically just keep 3-betting him until he fights back. If someone keeps 4-betting your 3-bets, then either cut down on your 3-bets (stick to solid values), or move to another table.


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Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 07:18 PM..
 

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