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2NL 6m zoom – NFD + 2 overs

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2NL 6m zoom – NFD + 2 overs - Tue Feb 18, 2014, 02:30 PM
(#1)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Villain first hand, no idea what he is, but noob surely.

So the fish in me was worse than he was, but how can I make it better.

1. Is this a flop and action to play stacks?

And general comments, plz.

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Hero (Button) ($4.98)
SB ($1.71)
BB ($5)
UTG ($2)
MP ($1.74)
CO ($3.07)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, A
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.05, SB raises to $0.08, BB calls $0.06, Hero calls $0.03

Flop: ($0.24) J, 4, 8 (3 players)
SB bets $0.02, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.16, SB raises to $0.30, Hero calls $0.14

Turn: ($0.84) K (2 players)
SB bets $0.02, Hero calls $0.02

River: ($0.88) J (2 players)
SB bets $1.31 (All-In), Hero calls $1.31
 
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Tue Feb 18, 2014, 02:39 PM
(#2)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
My play would be to shove over his flop raise. Even if he has a set or two pair we have (a lot of) outs when we see all five cards. I don't want to call down though. I'd actually reraise pre though to the min raise.

As played, it looks like he probably messed about with a set on flop and turn, and wanted to make up for lost value.

Either that or he is just a random fish spazzing out.

Last edited by bhoylegend; Tue Feb 18, 2014 at 04:08 PM..
 
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Tue Feb 18, 2014, 04:09 PM
(#3)
Guido-bomb's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 545
I agree with bhoy, you should be more agressive when he min bets like that, dont get into playing his game and you will have easier decisions on later streets.
 
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Tue Feb 18, 2014, 04:26 PM
(#4)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
Small blind makes a silly raise, and BB calls. I like 4 betting AKs here preflop with a bet around 0.24-0.36. You're not going to want to see a flop multiway with AKs and if the villain comes back at you, your options are shove or fold preflop. Having said that you didn't so lets analyze the flop play.

Small blind makes another ridiculous bet amount. I think your raise sizing is ok but once the SB clicks it back as a 4b he's polarized to AA, KK and sets(unless he's really fishy could be something like AJ, QJ, JT). I think the best play here after villains 4bet is to call flop (due to odds for NF), call turn... due to odds and then fold when villain shoves and hero misses. Shoving over his click back would be really bad as you're never getting called by worse.

Last edited by dirt eh; Tue Feb 18, 2014 at 04:32 PM..
 
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Tue Feb 18, 2014, 04:59 PM
(#5)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirt eh View Post
Small blind makes a silly raise, and BB calls. I like 4 betting AKs here preflop with a bet around 0.24-0.36. You're not going to want to see a flop multiway with AKs and if the villain comes back at you, your options are shove or fold preflop. Having said that you didn't so lets analyze the flop play.

Small blind makes another ridiculous bet amount. I think your raise sizing is ok but once the SB clicks it back as a 4b he's polarized to AA, KK and sets(unless he's really fishy could be something like AJ, QJ, JT). I think the best play here after villains 4bet is to call flop (due to odds for NF), call turn... due to odds and then fold when villain shoves and hero misses. Shoving over his click back would be really bad as you're never getting called by worse.
If this' weren't 2NL I'd agree that we would never be getting called by worse but, as it is 2NL, we are often getting called by worse. Unless the villain is one of the few players at 2NL who thinks about the game, and we have nothing to prove or disprove this, then I can think of countless occasions where villains have played hands like this and just been button clicking.

Even the sequence of bets/raises just makes villain look like he is a button clicking idiot, min-raise pre is one button click, min bet post is one button click, min-raise post is one button click, turn min bet is one button click, only the river is two button clicks at most. While this can mean he is scared of losing us and he has a huge hand I've come to realise that it can just as easily mean they have no actual thought process other than button clicking.

Shoving flop maximises fold equity when villain is just messing around and as said, I've often seen it that they call with worse, suited connectors etc. that if they hit their flush are dead to overflushes, when they are ahead we have outs to win.

EDIT: After googling the word often, it's maybe not the best word I could use, as I don't mean they are doing this 50% of the time, they are definitely doing it enough in my experience that they will fold to the action, call with worse, call with top pair, call with QT no clubs, 65c, T9c. One thing I can say often about, and say it without fear of contradiction, is that 2NL villains often have no reason or poor reasons for doing what they do.

EDIT EDIT: Perhaps my reasoning is full of crap though. I've got a themperature running right now, so if I am full of crap, I reserve the right to blame it on that.

Last edited by bhoylegend; Tue Feb 18, 2014 at 05:17 PM..
 
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Tue Feb 18, 2014, 08:05 PM
(#6)
Guido-bomb's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 545
the acient art of clicking buttons, so no one knows what you have.
 
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Tue Feb 18, 2014, 10:56 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hi brave,

I think there are 2 key mistakes in this hand. First is on the turn. When he leads for .02c here it just screams fear to me, he doesn't like the turn. It doesn't really indicate draw to me because it makes no sense (while someone might do this looking for a cheap river card, it's not consistent with the flop play which, if a draw, is quite aggressive). So I think it's very likely we have the best hand at this point, plus we have the nut club draw for insurance. Raise him big here imo.

Last key mistake is on the river. Let's think about an inexperienced, fishy player. They play the flop like they think they have the best hand on J48. Yes, sets do this, but in the hands of this player type so does AJ/QJ. On the K turn his action indicates doubt he still has the best hand. Obviously sets don't feel this way, but AJ/QJ does. On the river he makes an overbet all in, indicating he feels he has the best hand again. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's usually a duck...in this case the duck being AJ/QJ. I think we have a very easy fold to this action sequence.

(I think reading this as a bluff isn't good... even though all draws busted, his turn action is just completely inconsistent with a draw/bluff, and he could bluff the river for like .50c if he needed to, he doesn't need to overbet all in. This is more typically a max value attempt)


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Thu Feb 20, 2014, 04:17 AM
(#8)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Good analyses.

I was lost by his game, didn’t know if he is strong or weak OTT. Regardless, calling river was a mistake in both cases.

He had:
Click to show hidden text

Last edited by braveslice; Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 04:20 AM..
 
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Thu Feb 20, 2014, 04:29 AM
(#9)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveslice View Post
Good analyses.

I was lost by his game, didn’t know if he is strong or weak OTT. Regardless, calling river was a mistake in both cases.

He had:
Click to show hidden text
That sounds about right. Way I would have played it, he maybe would have called anyway, and I still go broke. Maybe he folds the better hand though.
 
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Thu Feb 20, 2014, 09:41 AM
(#10)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Yes, but your shoving would have had positive EV even if he calls.

I’m really trying to learn the shoving, but really I still don’t know when to do that. Almost every hand I read here, where shoving has been they play in 2/5 NL; it has been criticized just because there is no fold equity.

But I’m currently trying to add it to my repertoire.
 
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Thu Feb 20, 2014, 10:41 AM
(#11)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveslice View Post
Yes, but your shoving would have had positive EV even if he calls.

I’m really trying to learn the shoving, but really I still don’t know when to do that. Almost every hand I read here, where shoving has been they play in 2/5 NL; it has been criticized just because there is no fold equity.

But I’m currently trying to add it to my repertoire.
I think Dave could answer definitively on when it would be best to do it. For me though, I think your thread title covers when it often makes sense to shove, NFD and two overs. We usually have real equity and fold equity. That's why I'd suggested it as a line and why I take that line often now.

I'd really like to hear what Dave thinks about shoving these flops though.

It's a no brainier on a AKd QJdX flop but with just overs and flush draw? I still think it's ok but....
 
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Thu Feb 20, 2014, 12:01 PM
(#12)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Hey guys,

I think shoving the flop is +EV in this spot. It's true we don't want to shove into sets, but the EV of shoving is a function of ranging, both his range before we shove and his range to call off. If we put it in an equation it would be the pot we win the % of time he folds + pot equity vs. his call range. If the villain is only calling with sets/KK+, then the 2nd part of that equation is rly bad for us, so in order for shoving to be good, we need a lot of grab from the first part to compensate. This means in cases where the villains range is super strong, shoving isn't good.

In this case, although a bet/3b line looks very strong in a generic sense, the villain seems fishy in the clicking button sense, so I don't rate him to be super strong, nor do I think he's going to fold hands like top pair much. Against his actual hand we don't care too much... if he folds we win the pot now it's fine, and if he calls off, we play for stacks as a 53% favorite. He also seems likely to stack off dominated draws if he holds any, which is a huge boost for us as well. Although I doubt he plays draws this way tbh.

That being said, while shoving seems +EV to me, I suspect we do better here not shoving the flop, as I think we have a candidate villain to:

-Let us draw cheaply on the turn when we don't improve (via his button clicking)
-Pay us off when we get there (via his reluctance to fold top pair+)

If we can put in a small amount of money on the come, and still get the full prize when we improve to the best hand, we might as well have our cake and eat it too.


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