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NL10 SH - 4bet squeeze bb vs bu and sb

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NL10 SH - 4bet squeeze bb vs bu and sb - Thu Feb 20, 2014, 11:39 AM
(#1)
pockettones's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 151
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10, $0.02 ante No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

UTG: $26.10 (261 bb)
MP: $25.44 (254.4 bb)
CO: $28.45 (284.5 bb)
BTN: $37.68 (376.8 bb)
SB: $28.74 (287.4 bb)
Hero (BB): $10.22 (102.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q Q
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.40, SB raises to $1.20, Hero raises to $2.70, BTN folds, SB raises to $28.72 and is all-in, Hero calls $7.50 and is all-in

Flop: ($20.92) K 7 K (2 players, 2 are all-in)
Turn: ($20.92) J (2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($20.92) T (2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results:
Click to show hidden text


I take it this is a standard 4bet/stack with QQ/AK? Is there any scenario in which we should flat with these hands?
 
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Thu Feb 20, 2014, 12:07 PM
(#2)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
Hand plays itself... just a cooler imo.
Need some stats on the villain and/or table dynamics. If his 3bet is 9.0 or higher I'm getting it in here pretty much 100%. If it's less than 3.0, the best you're up against is AK.

Last edited by dirt eh; Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 02:06 AM..
 
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Thu Feb 20, 2014, 12:32 PM
(#3)
okneechan's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 41
it really depends on villain's stats and how nitty you are feeling at that moment. this same thing happened to me in one of my hands today but I was willing to play for stacks coz villain was from the BTN and he was somewhat shortstacked. its really just a tough spot but his shove can only mean he has AK/JJ+ unless he's super loose but his 3bet steal should mean he has at least Kx or Ax you know for blockers...i think 90% of players will do what you did. im sure i would have done the same but i know someone who classified his KK call as a "bad play" instead of a "bad beat" due to a nitty villain 3bet of 1%. for sure i cant fold KK here but QQ i think I will...tank and call all the same lol
 
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Thu Feb 20, 2014, 03:32 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Personally, I don't think this is a good spot to stack off without specific reads (like the SB being a LAGtard or maniac for example), we are going to get owned with AK/QQ here a ton when all the money goes in.

This isn't a blind war with wide ranges, and it's far different than a short stacking button opening and us getting it in with them (that would be fine with QQ/AK). In this hand we have a button open (ok that may be wide), but then the SB is 3-betting out of position, very deep stacked with the button. And when facing a cold 4b from the big blind player (which looks very strong indeed) is eager to get all 102 bb's in the middle.

Since we don't really want to 4b/fold QQ or AK, I think we do much better in the long run flatting the 3B. This allows us to keep the SB's range as wide as possible, and force all of his light 3b resteals to play a flop out of position against us.

The next question I predict will be if we're not 4-betting QQ or AK here then what are we 4-betting? I would suggest only AA/KK for value tbh. I think (sans reads) our cold 4-betting range should narrow and our 4-bet bluffs infrequent, so we don't need a wide value range to begin with to be balanced. So we might 4b AA/KK for value, and some A2s or A3s for bluffs, which has us cold 4-betting between 1.2-1.5% with 60-75% value hands, my gut says that seems about right.
If we later get reads that indicate wide ranges, like BU steal 48% and SB 3bvBU 18%, then we are going to want to be restealing a bit more frequently and in order to stay balanced, will also want to add more value hands, QQ/AK being the first to get added in that category.


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Thu Feb 20, 2014, 07:31 PM
(#5)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Funnily enough I disagree a lot with what Dave said.

QQ is far too strong to flat in this situation.

This is a situation where it's a great spot to 4b bluff. The SB should be 3betting quite wide vs a btn stl, and because of this we should expand our 4betting range.

I would not be surprised if the btn ships small PPs or AXs over our 4b as a 5b bluff, purely because this is such a stereotypical spot to cold 4b.

I also think we should be bluff heavy (50-60%) because ranges are so wide.
 
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Thu Feb 20, 2014, 08:32 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
The SB should be 3betting quite wide vs a btn stl, and because of this we should expand our 4betting range.
If the SB is doing what you and I think they should be doing, then I certainly agree we can cold 4/stack off QQ. I am not optimistic this is the case at 10NL, I suspect most randoms at this stake level are 3-betting too tight, and 5b shipping only nut-ted hands. I could be wrong about this, but I've learned time and again to assume the more conservative thing is happening until I get reads to the contrary.


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Thu Feb 20, 2014, 09:02 PM
(#7)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
This is a situation where it's a great spot to 4b bluff. The SB should be 3betting quite wide vs a btn stl, and because of this we should expand our 4betting range.

I would not be surprised if the btn ships small PPs or AXs over our 4b as a 5b bluff, purely because this is such a stereotypical spot to cold 4b.
This might all be true, but I wouldn't expect a random 10NL guy to know this, and even if he does expect you to be light fairly often, he likely won't act accordingly often enough.
 
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Fri Feb 21, 2014, 01:02 AM
(#8)
pockettones's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 151
Thanks for all the responses. Dave if I flat do we have a problem as the bu can now call wide? I think then this might be a little difficult postflop. Also, how wide does sb have to be restealing for us to profitably 4bet-ship QQ and AK?

Last edited by pockettones; Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 01:13 AM..
 
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Fri Feb 21, 2014, 11:20 AM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
If the button overcalls with some of his dominated hands I don't view that as too big a problem, certainly less so than 4b/folding QQ or 4b/getting it in vs. a super tight stack off range.

For clarity no one is suggesting 4-bet shoving, we would 4-bet to a normal sizing and be willing to get it in... as for how wide the SB needs to 3b, I don't think we usually find much grey area to the point we need to draw a line in the sand with a number... generally a player will either have a lite 3b range or they won't in this spot. For instance, I include on my HUD 3B vs. Button opens, so I can see if a villain is 3-betting steal position raises more than normal. Against a SB who's 3b is 3% and 3BvBU is 4%, they're just not lite. My stats in these categories so far this year are 7.49 and 15.31 respectively, so I'm the type of SB that birdayy is talking about (and you should 4b QQ against me). Most villains, in my experience, fall fairly clearly into one category or the other.

Also to be clear, I don't disagree with anything birdayy said from a theoretical standpoint... I disagree with the assessment that unknowns at 10NL are doing these things.


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Last edited by TheLangolier; Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 11:22 AM..
 
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Sat Feb 22, 2014, 12:56 PM
(#10)
pockettones's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 151
Ah okies thanks, and when I said 4b-ship I meant 4b and then ship it to a 5b lol, I now realise I was quite vague, 4b/stack it is what I should have typed. I just looked up villain's SB defend range and his SB call vs steal is 25% and resteal is 13% (would have been lower at the time as this includes his AA resteal) over 113 hands, low sample size but I think enough to show he seems to be quite loose in the small blind so I think 4b/stacking here is correct. Funnily enough he hasn't defended as single big blind. Don't remember if I looked at this or not I think I just thought this was a standard stack off with QQ/AK, but I will pay attention to this in the future in this spot.

Last edited by pockettones; Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 01:00 PM..
 

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