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Calculating Pot Odds

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Calculating Pot Odds - Thu Feb 20, 2014, 05:28 PM
(#1)
Max_Kane's Avatar
Since: Nov 2013
Posts: 48
Hey, folks!

I was re-reading the Cash Game course material, and I came up a doubt on how you calculate pot odds and especially, WHY it's done that way:

The situation is in the first line of tutorials, the second hand. You KJo, raise from CO to 6, button goes all in for 21 and the tutorial says you are supposed to call BECAUSE YOU ARE PAYING 15 TO WIN 45, SO YOU ONLY NEED TO WIN 33% OF THE TIME.

Now, blinds are 1 and 2, you raise to 6, get 3-bet to 21, so there are 30 chips in the middle. The only way the pot will be 45 is if you COUNT YOUR CALL! Since the decision you make is prior to investing those 15 dollars, shouldn't the math be: you nave to call 15 to win 30? I mean, you have to bet 15 to win back your 15 plus another 30, it doesn't feel right to me that you calculate pot equity with the total of the pot including your call when you haven't made the call yet and are deciding whether it's worth investing those 15?

Could anyone explain why?

Thanks!
 
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Thu Feb 20, 2014, 05:41 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,862
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Hi Max_Kane!

If we call, the pot will get 15 more from us, so it will be 45. What I have to put into the pot to call always needs to be added and leaving it out is a common mistake that newer players make (know I used to screw it up years ago when I started out too).

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Feb 20, 2014, 06:17 PM
(#3)
Max_Kane's Avatar
Since: Nov 2013
Posts: 48
Can you elaborate as to why that is, John, please?

Thanks!
 
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Thu Feb 20, 2014, 06:22 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,862
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pot odds = total pot size (including all chips)/ what I have to put in

or if you want to look at it as pot equity, PE = chips I put in / total pot size

If I play the hand, what I would win will include what I have to put in, not just what's already in it.

I basically always use equity.. numbers are easier for me to do in my head when playing.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner



Last edited by JWK24; Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 06:38 PM..
 
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Thu Feb 20, 2014, 07:55 PM
(#5)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
The wording is wrong. As you pointed out you are calling 15 to win 30,not 45. In odds that would be 2:1.

For equity it should read something like: You must call 15 which makes the pot 45 and gives you 33% equity.

Odds = pot : call

Equity = call / total pot * 100

It takes some getting used to and when you hear it enough you'll know which they mean most of the time.

For me odds work best when betting and equity when I do drawing calcs using the 2% rule.

But I am quite comfortable with math, although the arithmetic still bugs me incessantly.


Good decisions are mathematically correct whether math reasoning is used or not. (Think about it!)
 
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Thu Feb 20, 2014, 10:06 PM
(#6)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
I don't like the idea of adding what you may call, so creating a future pot size to evaluate the then equity. This has nothing to do with direct/immediate pot odds.

The quoted "SO YOU ONLY NEED TO WIN 33% OF THE TIME" really annoys me. It just confuses the simple mathematical odds and outs ratio method, whether you have a price to call.


PS. Remember TrumpinJoe and I on this topic >here< a while back.

Last edited by ForrestFive; Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 10:50 PM.. Reason: old thread
 
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Fri Feb 21, 2014, 06:47 AM
(#7)
TweedleBeetl's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,146
including the call is useful precisely because it allows you to visualize the "33% of the time" number which is a crucial factor when making a call.
 
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Fri Feb 21, 2014, 06:48 AM
(#8)
TweedleBeetl's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,146
let me add that the 2:1 odds notation is evil
 

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