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Raisng v's Shoving 10-15BBs

Raisng v's Shoving 10-15BBs - Sat Feb 22, 2014, 05:43 AM
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Hi all, just thought I'd open up a can of worms on the merits of both raising and shoving when we've 10-15 BBs in a STT and MTT. This was my exit from the $60k last week.

I think this was a poor re-shove by my opponent but I'm also questioning my own play. Villain was 50/50 over just 2 hands so without any other info I'm snapping off his reshove if I min raise. AQo is marginal UTG but I'm happy villain was so weak.

I could have min raised and got away from the hand against a very tight player. I may also have seen a flop and got away. By min raising I can also widen my range and min raise/ steal more.

Spots like this are pretty difficult.

Any thoughts?

Bracelet Winner
Sat Feb 22, 2014, 05:52 AM
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I prefer the line you took than raise/folding.

Having said that, I still think we can hand around without committing all our chips until the 7bb mark or so, which if we are willing to accept that scenario. I guess you could raise/fold here but it feels pretty horrible doing so.
Sat Feb 22, 2014, 11:33 AM
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
Hey Oval!

A case can definitely be made for both. I know I've played these both ways in many tourneys. What I don't want to do is to ever raise enough to where I'm pot-committed and then fold.

The way that I'll handle it, I try to base off the blind structure. If the blinds are longer, then I'll wait a bit longer to start open-shoving. However, if the blinds are about to go up, or go up quickly, then I'm more likely to open-shove.

The bottom line though is that both plays are viable.

John (JWK24)


6 Time Bracelet Winner

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 11:32 AM
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
AQo is a marginal hand in this spot. I'm quite happy he called so weak but it was a loosish table and I don't think I'm min raising in this spot and ever folding. I think no matter how I played this hand the result was always going to be the same.

Folding is too nitty but it's still a marginal spot. I'm just wondering how to change my big field MTT strategy so I don't get stuck in spots like this. I raised 97s earlier in the game in the cut off but I'm wondering is 97o a raise in the same spot knowing suited only adds around 2% equity to my hand?

I'm OK in a STT in this spot, I can just open another STT when I lose 10-15 BBs deep but big field MTTs are not going well for me even though I don't make any major mistakes.

I'd like feedback in playing spots like this

Bracelet Winner
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 05:19 PM
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
hi ovalman, at first look I think I will just shove pre flop because it's already AQ but after re reading the thoughts that you've said and Coach John and bhoy - I'm thinking twice

Just like they've said I think both options is fine. Shoving pre and flipping for less headache is easier

min raise and folding to a tighter player is great also cause you want to survive the MTT

If I'm gonna play this hand I'm shoving and taking a flip because I'm looking for a top3 finish - yes it's utg and yes we got 14-15bb but I'd rather flip here than raise fold. if your thinking about raise folding pre flop in this spot you might rather fold in the first place because wasting 10-15% of your chips without fighting is not good for me

if we win a flip we will get ourselves more than 30bb stack which is a great stack

here we lose to a flip - we need to win a lot of flips and a lot of suck outs to win a big MTT,

I like the line you take here just not this time

and you are right opponent should have folded 33 in this spot because a lot of players left still to act and 33 is an easy fold
Sun Feb 23, 2014, 07:40 PM
TarekGG's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 157
No offense, but I didn't really read all the responses in this thread seeing how I disagree with them, mostly because they were so generalized instead of specifying which situations you'd do rather. This might've been mentioned, or been touched, if so then I apologize.

However, if you are raise/folding trying to play "fit or fold" poker that shallow I'd say you are highly exploitable. Almost everyone at this table is shallow and can't really play post flop, which makes me question why you'd try to play post flop? Your raise would almost incline the big blind to call, and I don't really see how you'd plan to play it post if you didn't hit, but got a draw vs. an open shove?

Thing is that you are out of position against a the entire table besides the blinds therefor I'd already just shove this hand. Seeing how this guy gladly called 33 preflop in a very awkward spot I'd do this all the time since you'll dominate his range. But now you have to take something into account, if you can play AQ postflop without actually having to hit, and playing out of position, thinking that you are better at reading board texture and assigning range then you'd still need some other factors for leaning towards raising here. Does your opponent love to see flops, but folds a lot to cbets? How wide is their range? Do they bet when they hit, or don't they? If you feel you have an edge on the table and a small cbet will make them fold most of the hands, and they gladly call raises AND shoves like it was the same preflop, then go with raising. I like the preflop game, I think that's what tournaments are all about - cash games are deeper stacked hence more post flop. SNGs are also a lot about assigning ranges and figuring out which hands to play and not so much post flop, especially not in turbos - everything is about hand selection and calling ranges there.

All you really need to do is make notes early and capitalize on that, if you table folds a lot to shoves, but doesn't give up easily when there's a raised pot - then shove. Figure out what they do, and make the most profitable play for yourself. If this sounds like a generalizing I'd say that this is honestly how I do it, against some players I'll pound them a lot post flop rather than pre flop seeing how they are more of a calling station there than the other way around.

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