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20 Vices in limit hold'em

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20 Vices in limit hold'em - Wed Dec 04, 2002, 09:26 PM
(#1)
Rolf's Avatar
Since: May 2010
Posts: 862
WhiteStar
Guys,

In limit hold'em, it is important to have a few qualities working for you. For example, if you have better knowledge of odds and percentages than most of your opponents do, you have an edge over them- at least, in this specific area. However, it is my experience that LACKING in a few areas will cost you much more money than being good in others can ever make you. Example: a few otherwise good and capable players go on tilt quite frequently, and it is this characteristic alone that makes it impossible for them to win in the long run- despite the fact that they ARE good players.

Today, I will give you guys a list of 20 vices, 20 areas in poker where some players simply lack compared to others. Please rate every one of these areas on a scale from 0 to 100, the figure indicating how much your overall results will be harmed if you lack considerably in that specific area. For example, if you think having less knowledge of odds and percentages than the average player will harm your hourly rate terribly, but lacking in discipline is not that important, you might give 45 points to discipline and 85 points to odds/perc. If you don't know what I mean exactly by terms like "preparation" or "game selection", you might want to re-read some of my earlier lessons. In a couple of days time I will discuss your responses and give you my own views on this subject.

VICES IN LIMIT HOLD'EM

01. Not enough PATIENCE in waiting for the right hand / situation
02. Bad TABLE IMAGE
03. Not knowing the exact ODDS / PERCENTAGES
04. Playing your own cards only, lacking in PLAYING THE PLAYERS
05. Lacking in TABLE- / GAME-SELECTION
06. Lacking in SEAT SELECTION
07. KNOWING the right play, but not always MAKING the right play
08. Not performing well under PRESSURE
09. Vulnerable to TILT and STEAMING
10. Lacking in PREPARATION
11. Not LOVING and / or ENJOYING the game enough
12. Not ADJUSTING enough to changed or changing circumstances
13. Not DISCIPLINED enough (in the broadest sense of the word)
14. Not capable of creating a healthy GAMBLING ATMOSPHERE
15. Being plain UNLUCKY
16. Having poor MONEY MANAGEMENT
17. Not AGGRESSIVE enough / not MAXIMIZING WINS
18. Not TRICKY and / or CREATIVE enough
19. Lacking in the selection of STARTING HANDS
20. Not capable of FOLDING when hand turns sour

Please rate these 20 vices on the scale I mentioned, and if necessary explain why in your opinion that specific area is, or isn't, so important for one's overall results. Take care, you guys, and good luck,

Rolf.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 04, 2002, 10:32 PM
(#2)
Deleted user
being as i am from UK and unlikely ever to have to play LIMIT poker and i am glad as my time in the school shows that my 3 weekest games (that the school offers) are the 3 limit games

in fact i have to say that the biggest vice in limit holdem is the fact its limit

if you want me to list the order for a NLHE game then i could although i think the order would be very different
 
Old
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Wed Dec 04, 2002, 10:52 PM
(#3)
Deleted user
01. Not enough PATIENCE in waiting for the right hand / situation
90....i think this is one of the most important thins in poker.

02. Bad TABLE IMAGE
20.... image doesnt bother me much, as quite a few players dont even pay attention enough to make setting up an image worthwhile.

03. Not knowing the exact ODDS / PERCENTAGES
65....knowing when to make the right play, by figuring the odds is the difference between winners and losers in the long run.

04. Playing your own cards only, lacking in PLAYING THE PLAYERS
70....getting the maniacs to pay you off is key, and making the rocks lay down a hand. playing the player is rather important to me.

05. Lacking in TABLE- / GAME-SELECTION
50....in the cardrooms that i have played in, you dont have an option as to the seat you pick, you get what is open or you dont play. almost the same with game selection, the only difference is in the limit you play, so i am middle of the road here with my decision.

06. Lacking in SEAT SELECTION
50...same as above

07. KNOWING the right play, but not always MAKING the right play
80.... those extra bets you lose by making the wrong play, when you know what the right play is, is what can make the difference on wether or not you show a profit for the long run.

08. Not performing well under PRESSURE
100.....scared money is lost money!!!!!

09. Vulnerable to TILT and STEAMING
95....if you dont have a clear head, you make irrational decisions, which costs you money.

10. Lacking in PREPARATION
35....i have certain routines i go through before i play poker, but i dont put extreme emphasis on it.

11. Not LOVING and / or ENJOYING the game enough
75.... if you dont love what you are doing, then why do it? and you cant possibly be giving 100% to something that you dont love, which means your not playing your A game all the time.

12. Not ADJUSTING enough to changed or changing circumstances
65....as players come and go, the dynamics of the game change, if you dont change your game withthem, then you will not be able to maximize your profits.

13. Not DISCIPLINED enough (in the broadest sense of the word)
not too sure what you are asking here.....

14. Not capable of creating a healthy GAMBLING ATMOSPHERE
55....people dont get as upset about losing money in a healthy atmosphere, they will stick around and donate longer.

15. Being plain UNLUCKY
10....no one is just plain unlucky, we set up or create or own luck. a positive attitude can work wonders.

16. Having poor MONEY MANAGEMENT
90... poker is game where you can play perfect in a given session and still go home with a loss in the books. if you cant manage your money well, you wont be able to get in the next game.

17. Not AGGRESSIVE enough / not MAXIMIZING WINS
75.... if you are not maximizing all your profits when you have an edge over the other player(s), you are costing yourself money.

18. Not TRICKY and / or CREATIVE enough
30.....i have found that in most ring games, fancy play is not that valuable, you make more money by playing straightforward poker.

19. Lacking in the selection of STARTING HANDS
85... one of the most expensive errors in poker is starting hand selection, limping in with rags, or hands that you know are underdogs, get very costly over time.

20. Not capable of FOLDING when hand turns sour
85.... those extra bets you save, by folding when you know you are beat, is what makes you a winner. as someone once said, in the long run, all players are dealt the same hands, it is those that maximize their profits and minimize their losses, that end up the winners.
 
Old
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Twenty Poker Tips - Wed Dec 04, 2002, 11:04 PM
(#4)
Deleted user

I understand the rate to indicate '1' is least significant and '100' most significant. Here goes:

1. Patience "75" waiting for position and knowledge of players envolved in the hand.
2. Table image "40" this is one of those things that changes as the flow of the game and table make-up changes. A bad image may be good for certain situations (as long as it's not to far off my normal playing strategy).
3. Odds "45" since they change and may conflict with the reading of the players hands.
4. Play the Players "85" is a big place to loose money by failing in 2 of my rules of poker, (a) loose less and (b) win more
5. Selection game "50" you have to know if you have any edge over many of the players. I hate to be at table an look in the mirror to find the fish.
6. Seat selection "30" I would like to be able to select my seat based on the playing styles of my competition and do when I sit down in the start-up games.
7. Play knowledge/application "25" depends on the play-style of the opposition.
8. Pressure "70" must be relaxed and aware to perform at my best.
9. Tilt "95" big leak I'm still dealing with sporadically. Gotta hold on to money in tough situations.
10. Preparation "90" if I'm not prepared how can I cover all the other 19 items going into the game.
11. Loving/enjoying the game "50" If I don't feel good about what I doing I have to find something else to do.
12. Adjusting "60" Stale play causes others to pick-up on what you are doing (they might be playing you "perfect").
13. Not disciplined "75" I must know myself.
14. Atmosphere "80" You can't run the other players off. If I see a table laughing and having fun, I might be in heaven.
15. Unlucky "20" It's out there and I try to advoid it.
16. M.M. "60" If I don't have the "juice," I have to stay home and watch TV.
17. Aggression "50" have to balance this to keep from getting out of line.
18. Creative "50" I have to be careful to apply in right situations.
19. Starting Hands "60" That's poker.
20. Folding when it goes bad "55"
 
Old
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Mon Dec 09, 2002, 10:16 AM
(#5)
Deleted user
#5 TABLE- / GAME-SELECTION 100. This is the single most important factor. If you choose the right table/game everything else falls into place.

After that, I'd probably say Patience/Odds/Starting Hands. These are all inter-related in my mind and important. I'd give them 80.

Avoiding tilt is important, but I've been pretty good about avoiding that in the last few years. I really do see it as one loooooooong poker game.

Most of the rest are for people who are playing/trying to play professionally. Seat selection can give you a slight edge. Table image gives a slight edge. Etc.

In the games I play, 15-30 to 50-100, I find that people fall into what Caro calls Fancy Play Syndrome a lot. I've been able to make money at these tables by playing a pretty straightforward ABC style. I do adjust to certain players when I think they're making a move on me and I'll call with hands like 2nd pair, but in general I look for tables with at least one and preferably 2 or 3 really bad players.

I'd like to add an important one to this, and maybe it comes under Money Management, but keeping track of wins and losses and hands played. I thought I was a winning player for a few years. I wasn't. I only found that out after I got Stat King (bankroll tracking software) and started using it religiously.

Peace, Starrs

PS Why would anybody play if they weren't enjoying/loving the game?
 
Old
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Mon Dec 09, 2002, 10:31 AM
(#6)
Deleted user
Starrs saved me a reply.

Game selection is almost the only "skill" in winning at poker.

Winning depends entirely on playing against people who play worse than you do. There are lots of games where you can't beat the rake.

The "ego-salve" from "outplaying" others is very unlikely to show long-term profit.[/b]
 
Old
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My view - Tue Dec 10, 2002, 10:34 AM
(#7)
Rolf's Avatar
Since: May 2010
Posts: 862
WhiteStar
Guys,
While you're right about the importance of game selection, it is important to recognize that at the higher limits, and especially in big-bet games, there is often only one game available- it is only at the lower and middle limits where there are lots of games to choose from. Actually, I think quite a few of the factors I mentioned can cost you a lot of money when lacking in them, and to tell you the truth I hardly ever see a player who could not improve considerably on any of the points mentioned. OK, here we go:

VICES IN LIMIT HOLD'EM

01. Not enough PATIENCE in waiting for the right hand / situation
Points: 87.5

02. Bad TABLE IMAGE
Points: 45

03. Not knowing the exact ODDS / PERCENTAGES
Points: 67.5

04. Playing your own cards only, lacking in PLAYING THE PLAYERS
Points: 70

05. Lacking in TABLE- / GAME-SELECTION
Points: 80

06. Lacking in SEAT SELECTION
Points: 77.5

07. KNOWING the right play, but not always MAKING the right play
Points: 75

08. Not performing well under PRESSURE
Points: 72.5

09. Vulnerable to TILT and STEAMING
Points: 87.5

10. Lacking in PREPARATION
Points: 67.5

11. Not LOVING and / or ENJOYING the game enough
Points: 72.5

12. Not ADJUSTING enough to changed or changing circumstances
Points: 75

13. Not DISCIPLINED enough (in the broadest sense of the word)
Points: 90

14. Not capable of creating a healthy GAMBLING ATMOSPHERE
Points: 72.5

15. Being plain UNLUCKY
Points: 35

16. Having poor MONEY MANAGEMENT
Points: 62.5

17. Not AGGRESSIVE enough / not MAXIMIZING WINS
Points: 67.5

18. Not TRICKY and / or CREATIVE enough
Points: 55

19. Lacking in the selection of STARTING HANDS
Points: 85

20. Not capable of FOLDING when hand turns sour
Points: 77.5

I will save the exact analysis for one of my upcoming articles. Next week, I will rate these same vices for pot-limit Omaha, the big-bet game. Take care, you guys, and good luck,

Rolf.
 
Old
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Tue Dec 10, 2002, 10:36 PM
(#8)
Deleted user
Thanks Rolf,

It's an interesting lesson and I agree with most of what you say. I still abide by the idea that table selection is more important than pretty much any other factor.

There's that old joke about the world's tenth best poker player. He plays all the time, but he's constantly losing money. The punchline is he's playing with the 9 best poker players in the world. The flipside is you could be the worlds tenth worst poker player and still make money. You'd just have to find the 9 worst players.

I'm not a pro. Nor do I want to be. Poker is a hobby and I love it. I can make a few dollars playing and I like that. But I'm not a world class player. There are a lot of players of about my caliber. Maybe a little bit better and maybe a little bit worse. There's really very little reason for me to play with them. But when I can find a player who is much worse, well, that's the game I'm looking for.

I live just over an hour from Atlantic City. Twice I've driven there and looked for a game in the two big poker rooms and not found a table to my liking. Both times I got back in my car and drove home.

I could've sat down and maybe won a few hundred or maybe lost a few hundred, but in my mind it would have been gambling. If there isn't a game to my liking then I'm not playing, because there will be a good game tomorrow or the next day. I guess I'm just not much of a gambler.

Peace, Starrs LSOGC

PS. I'm looking forward to your Omaha lessons as it's a game I'm learning. I haven't played Omaha for real money yet. I want to become adept at Omaha so I have even more options of good games when I'm in the poker room.

PPS. I definitely think there are other impostant skills. Just yesterday I got a seat change button after a few hands at a new table so that I could switch seats. I wanted to act after the maniac who was raising about fifty percent of the hands pre and post flop in a PLH game.
 

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