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25nl Deep - BvB Ranges to get in

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25nl Deep - BvB Ranges to get in - Thu Feb 27, 2014, 10:58 AM
(#1)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Stats

BB: $87.30 - VPIP: 23, PFR: 20, 3B: 9, 4B: 12.5, 5B: 9.5 AF: 2.3, Hands: 413



Vs Aggressive regs i'm just wondering if I should be getting this in?

I know we are deep, so it might change things.

I think once we 4b we shouldn't fold, because at this stack depth he can start having a 5b bluffing range.
 
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Thu Feb 27, 2014, 12:38 PM
(#2)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
Hmmmm. 5bet of 9.5 is pretty huge. I think there's a case for shoving AKs but then again you're 53% against a 9.1 range with AKo.

Last edited by dirt eh; Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 12:07 AM..
 
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Thu Feb 27, 2014, 01:34 PM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Wow, you're very deep here. I wonder if just flatting the 3-bet (albeit OOP) might be best in this particular spot. (For 100bb, I'm stacking off every time BvB, as I'm sure you are also).


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Thu Feb 27, 2014, 02:37 PM
(#4)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
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I am flatting the 3b here, with JJ,QQ, AK and vs some more nitty player KK as well.
 
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Thu Feb 27, 2014, 07:21 PM
(#5)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
The 25nl deep games do play pretty crazy though. It's a lot more aggressive than 10nl etc.

I don't think flatting the 3b is very good because villains start 3b/calling ATs, AJs, AQo which we have dominated.
 
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Thu Feb 27, 2014, 09:14 PM
(#6)
CaRLoS_DZ87's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 184
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Hi birdayy,

Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
I don't think flatting the 3b is very good because villains start 3b/calling ATs, AJs, AQo which we have dominated.
-I rather keep those hands in his range a long with all his bluffs and see a flop and get value postflop from A high boards, rather than have to 4bet fold AK or 4bet call a 5bet OOP.

-
AK 55.57%
AK,AQ,AJs,ATs,99-QQ 44.43% (villain 4bet calling range)

-I am not a big fan of playing a 4bet pot (a $16 pot going to the flop) OOP vs that strong of a range, think I would rather play a small pot OOP vs a much weak range.


-I am yet to find someone that bluff shoves 200bb at least on 25nl-50nl zoom. I really think will be rare the times someones gets it in with AK, QQ or worst here.
 
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Fri Feb 28, 2014, 12:43 AM
(#7)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
His 5bet range looks that way 3bet=9, 5bet=9*0.095=0.855%hand range KK+, and you won't have enough samples for his 5bet hand range I think. and you need BvB situation samples to use them more accurate, if you don't have enough stats just look at his average all-in equity , I'm fast sure it won't be less than 75%.

Last edited by Shichi-77; Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 12:48 AM..
 
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Fri Feb 28, 2014, 11:34 AM
(#8)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
I think actually we have a number of options available to us. I think flatting the threebet is very profitable and might be the most profitable option.

I think calling the fivebet might be better than shoving and that shoving is reasonably sketchy.

Is that 5b range or 5bet % ? That matters a lot, as has been indicated above.
 
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Fri Feb 28, 2014, 12:12 PM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Hey all,

I too prefer flatting the 3b. As played I would be more inclined to flat the 5b than shove, although it's less attractive to me than flatting the 3b.

While it's true that the money is deep enough where the villain could have a 5-bet bluff range in theory, I just think that most villains simply don't.


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Fri Feb 28, 2014, 09:16 PM
(#10)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
so what is more important here is the stats we haven't seen yet

what is this player's three-betting tendencies look like? those are going to put their initial three-bet in a ton of context.

what is your fold to three-bet? what is your SB opening range in his HUD?

The fact that he has 3b = 9 tells us nothing to be frank

Last edited by GarethC23; Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 09:36 PM..
 
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Fri Feb 28, 2014, 10:39 PM
(#11)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179


And 9 is 5b Range, not 5b%

My fold to 3b BvB is 55%, and my RFI is 56%

Last edited by birdayy; Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 11:13 PM..
 
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Sat Mar 01, 2014, 04:20 AM
(#12)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
His PFR from BB is 7% , his 4bet range 4% and his 5bet range 9%. His 3bet from BB 4.1% .
I just don't understand 5bet range of 9%. 5bet is a part of hand range of 3bet, if it's 9% he has to 5bet fast every time after 3bet, his 5bet % has to be at about 100% as I understand it. What do you think about my calculations ?

Last edited by Shichi-77; Sat Mar 01, 2014 at 04:26 AM..
 
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Sat Mar 01, 2014, 07:58 AM
(#13)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shichi-77 View Post
His PFR from BB is 7% , his 4bet range 4% and his 5bet range 9%. His 3bet from BB 4.1% .
I just don't understand 5bet range of 9%. 5bet is a part of hand range of 3bet, if it's 9% he has to 5bet fast every time after 3bet, his 5bet % has to be at about 100% as I understand it. What do you think about my calculations ?
His 3bet tot is 4% but his 3bet vs a steal is 8%. Those numbers might mean nothing 200bb deep because his 3betting range might change, he might start 3betting more hands for value instead of flatting so much IP.

My guess is if he was depolarized on 200bb stacks then he might flat Birdays 4bet with most of that and 5bet the top of it?
 
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Sat Mar 01, 2014, 08:06 AM
(#14)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
That's handy that HM gives 4bet/5bet ranges - think PT only gives %?
 
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Sat Mar 01, 2014, 08:50 AM
(#15)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
This claims the stat is called 4Bet+ Ratio

https://pt4.pokertracker.com/forums/...p?f=58&t=48879
 
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Sat Mar 01, 2014, 10:40 AM
(#16)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
His 3bet tot is 4% but his 3bet vs a steal is 8%. Those numbers might mean nothing 200bb deep because his 3betting range might change, he might start 3betting more hands for value instead of flatting so much IP.

My guess is if he was depolarized on 200bb stacks then he might flat Birdays 4bet with most of that and 5bet the top of it?
Numbers don't include dynamic of the game on the table of course, and all ranges depend on opponents. We don't know what he did think about Birdayy.
 
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Sat Mar 01, 2014, 10:57 AM
(#17)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Birday said he folds 55% of the time vs a 3bet in blinds so the villain probably knows that and might 3bet more strong hands so i would be abit worried when he 5bets me 200bb deep.

I mean why would you want to 3bet Birday with complete air if he will call a fair bit you can just flat a wider range and 3bet a stronger range and then i would be pretty lost vs him preflop so i would just keep out of his way for now but i think i got the preflop play right if i know how wide he opens or calls 3bets.
 
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Sat Mar 01, 2014, 04:14 PM
(#18)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveslice View Post
This claims the stat is called 4Bet+ Ratio

https://pt4.pokertracker.com/forums/...p?f=58&t=48879
Hey, thanks for the link Braveslice - I tried creating a custom stat a while ago, but the numbers didn't seem like they could be right - thought the 4bet range was a function of the 3bet %/range?

Will give this one a try, and will post if it seems to be working
 
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Sun Mar 02, 2014, 04:31 AM
(#19)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post


And 9 is 5b Range, not 5b%

My fold to 3b BvB is 55%, and my RFI is 56%
Let's look at "Fold to Hero Steal" "BB to SB" I see a 71%.

Thi s abig problem. Your RFI and fold to three-bet indicate that you should be four-bet/getting it in here against an opponent who is reacting to that. But this villain isn't. Even if 1.05 is your standard in the SB, in an ante game he should be calling such a huge portion of the deck in position.

So he isn't defending by calling enough and he gives up a lot. That means that yes, he probably has a three-bet range we crush because it might be comprised of a lot of AX we dominate that make better sense to flat.

I am trying to decide whether I think flatting the five-bet is better than sixing. It might be. I think that's a bit of an academic point in this hand because your 4b and 5b range stats aren't going to be too reliable here. They aren't contextualized to the situation and remember, if villain does three-bet hands like A5s that he could just call with, he had the opportunity to flat your four-bet in position but he didn't, he raised again.

I am not willing to go so far as to say that the six is unprofitable. So much dead money and you have a hand with two of the highest ranked cards in a 13 rank deck. But I would be very surprised if we weren't just printing a ton of money flatting the three-bet at this depth.

You say the games play crazy aggro etc. That's also an argument for not four-betting and calling with this portion of your range. You don't have to check-fold J74. I'll tell you a secret: I don't .

 
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Sun Mar 02, 2014, 10:48 AM
(#20)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Thanks G.

I thought position was extremely important deep, and as such, I can get owned flatting 3bets OOP vs a wide range.

Could be wrong though.
 

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