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raising an UTG limper

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raising an UTG limper - Thu Dec 05, 2002, 01:27 PM
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today at the table i tried to explain why in the early rounds of a NLHE tourny raising a UTG limper is dangerous but i ain't the best writer in the world so i might have not explained it properly


early in a tourny a player is likely to limp in with monsters UTG hopeing to get a player wake up with JJ or QQ in a MP or LP whom will raise so he can come over the top with his KK or AA forcing the player to lay down his PP or go all in as a 4-1 dog.

so to raise an UTG limper you should have KK or AA yourself (cutting down the odds that the player has you beat)
if the player is a none maniac by all means raise at them but be very carefull agaisnt a player that wears many hidden vails to there game.

the down side that these players limping UTG with big hands is it encourages other players to limp and flops can often be seen 4 or 5 handed and the bb is in free so most flops look dangerous and you have to be prepared to ditch your over pair to a possible straight,flush,trips set or 2 pair. trying to work out what players have in this case is hard. you therefore need to work out the cost of trying to take down a small pot or trying to build a bigger one.

as the money gets shallower and he blinds increase and antes kick in slow playing becomes less rewarding as the pots are big enough to win there and then without seeing any more cards.

a comment made at the table was as the money gets shallower you want more and more big stacks up against you when you hold AA
in my view this is again wrongas the blinds increase you want to pick on the small stacks and heads up no matter what you hold this doesnt mean folding AA when a big stack bets out at you but means when you can try to get your money in against stacks that cannot bust you and always try to get heads up whe you have big hands because the more people in the pot the more value the hands lose.



these are my personal views on a few things that were discussed at a table earlier post here for all to see and noodles to rip into with some indepth thinking.
 
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Re: raising an UTG limper - Thu Dec 05, 2002, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironside
early in a tourny a player is likely to limp in with monsters UTG hopeing to get a player wake up with JJ or QQ in a MP or LP whom will raise so he can come over the top with his KK or AA forcing the player to lay down his PP or go all in as a 4-1 dog.

so to raise an UTG limper you should have KK or AA yourself (cutting down the odds that the player has you beat)
This is precisely the reason that many players will raise a total of two or three times the big blind, so they can lay down a hand like J-J if someone comes over the top.

But if you limit your raises to only those times when you have A-A or K-K, you give a lot of information away to any player astute enough to observe your play. You can also make the same raise with A-K, Q-Q, and a few other hands in order to disguise those ocasions when you really do have a pair of aces.
 
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Thu Dec 05, 2002, 08:11 PM
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Personally, I wouldn't raise an early limper with JJ, but I would with a range of other hands such as AK, QQ, AQs probably and more besides. Heck, I'd raise with any 2 against certain early limpers.

If I limped in early, I would be happy for others to be scared of raising me.
 
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Re: raising an UTG limper - Fri Dec 06, 2002, 01:45 PM
(#4)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouKrieger
You can also make the same raise with A-K, Q-Q, and a few other hands in order to disguise those ocasions when you really do have a pair of aces.



i was trying to make the point against a solid tricky player in the early rounds while the money was deep.

at this point in a tourny there is not much problem limping in with AK,QQ i even seen me bust out limping in KK on an AKxxx board after UTG limped in AA.
the point is your not going to win the event in the next 2 hours(online tounry) but if your not there in the next 2 hours you are sure not going to win.
early rounds should be fit or fold the going all in from button with a pp of 4's from button on first level (which started this debate on the table i was on) is not a winning play because the UTG player limped in and 3 other players behind him also limped doesnt mean that they dont have a hand they can call with and if they do call your going to be at best 51/49 favourite and problery 4-1 dog.
as the rounds increase it is less likely that UTG limping in has AA,KK or AKs or QQ as they should be happy enough to pick up the antes and blinds and catch any short stack on a move.
changing your plays is also vital sometimes raising a UTG limper with rag rag (while not commiting yourself early) will allow you to win a small pot you might even see a flop that you can bluff on as the UTG limper will have you on a big overpair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noodles
Personally, I wouldn't raise an early limper with JJ, but I would with a range of other hands such as AK, QQ, AQs probably and more besides. Heck, I'd raise with any 2 against certain early limpers.
hey i raised UTG limpers with AJs "all in" because they are not capable of not raising with any pp or 2 face cards you know they have suited connectors or a "face and a base" (k3,q2 etc etc) suited which you are well ahead of and you have the player OUT CHIPPED


another good point in not raising UTG in early rounds without a hand is when you win a pot at showdown with you QQ or AKs or JJ players thinking your tight so in the middle rounds (where it is vital to pick up pots uncontested) people will fold to your steals putting you on a much bigger hand than you have.


again these are just my personal thoughts and i am greatfull for your replies.
 

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