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NL - zoom cash .02BB - 33 BB - should my betting have been different

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NL - zoom cash .02BB - 33 BB - should my betting have been different - Mon Mar 03, 2014, 11:13 PM
(#1)
jmich73's Avatar
Since: Feb 2014
Posts: 3
I am new at this, so trying to figure out how to post hands for one thing (hopefully I get it right).

Was in SB position with 33, EP raised 3x BB, I called. Flopped a 3, question is around the betting that followed, wondering if it was adequate.

 
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Mon Mar 03, 2014, 11:55 PM
(#2)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hey jmich73,

This is a great hand, maybe you should play post flop old school and then my feelings that the game has changed?

OK pre flop calling with 33 is good to set mine.

1) The old school, "the professional line" to check to the original raiser? Now we can check raise our set - unlucky to an over set

2) Lead out as we do, I'm thinking this is more like the new modern game? I mean to donk and just love a raise in this spot.

As played is perfect with 3 streets of value by leading out. But at 1c/2c stakes you could get into trouble if you get raised now and don't know what to do?

The HA people know this stuff more than me. I was for a flop check / raise, then wow flop lead and 3-bet if raised.

Last edited by ForrestFive; Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 11:58 PM.. Reason: game has changed
 
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Tue Mar 04, 2014, 01:42 AM
(#3)
kalahwang's Avatar
Since: Nov 2013
Posts: 135
I would check/call to the raiser OTF given that the board is dry and to give him a chance to draw a bit.

OTT, playing OOP if you read he is quite aggressive, and would probably double barrel you could check/raise. But readless, and on a relatively brick turn, you could just lead out and bet.


If you think he is quite aggressive, you could also opt to check/raise OTF, but he does not have too much to call you except for an overpair.
 
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Tue Mar 04, 2014, 05:19 AM
(#4)
rkleefstra's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,328
NH
You got 2 streets of value, which is nice. I do believe the bets could have been a little bigger OTF and OTT , If he calls 50%potbets, he is gonna call 70%pot too. I would play this for stacks anytime. If he has an overset, so be it. You want to build a pot so you can shove OTR.


I like the donkbet ! C/R would look superstrong and you will not get the value this hand deserves.


O, and the preflop-call is fine. don't go crazy and raise here


(and cash tables with a 2cent bigblind are called 2NL not .02BB )

Last edited by rkleefstra; Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 05:26 AM..
 
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Tue Mar 04, 2014, 07:35 AM
(#5)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Hi Jmich, welcome to the forums and thanks for posting this interesting hand!

Preflop I like the call. You're hoping to flop a set and win a big pot, so we recommend that when you're Out Of Position, you should only call if the effective stack size (ie. the smallest stack size, V5's stack here) in 20x bigger than the bet you have to call. Since you have to call a bet of $0.05 and the effective stack size is about $2, you're easily getting decent odds to try and setmine.

The flop play is interesting. I think donkbetting the flop (ie. betting into the raiser) is quite reasonable, but I think a check/raise is probably more profitable.

Let's think what V5's range for raising from Early Position is. Most players realise that they have to raise fewer and stronger hands from early position, so he might have a range of something like TT+ and AJ+. So he's either got overcards that have completely missed or he's got an overpair.

With overcards, if you donkbet he might call once but he's going to fold on the turn unless he hits, but even then he's not likely to raise. Of course a lot of villains will just fold on the flop. If you check, you give him the chance to bluff once or you give him the chance to catch up on the turn if he decides to check. Either way, you're unlikely to get more than one street of value out of him, but I don't mind letting him see a free card.

If he's got an overpair, we can definitely extract some strong value here whatever we do. If we donkbet, he might call or raise perhaps depending on the strength of his overpair. The problem with this is that he might choose to call down in position to control the size of the pot, particularly with some of his lower overpairs so we probably aren't extracting max value.

However if we check, villain is always going to CBet his overpairs and will not fold to a raise. This immediately guarantees us effectively two streets of value. Also if he's got AA/KK, he's likely to 3Bet and be happy to get all in on the flop, thinking that we've also got an overpair that's smaller than his. This would be awesome!

Even if he doesn't get all in immediately, I can't see him folding on the turn either. Now he might fold the river, but then again he might not. By check/raising, we're building up the pot when villain has a very strong second best hand that he's not going to fold too easily.

As played I think betting out like you did is also good, but I would bet bigger on the turn, because he's not going to fold stuff like JJ/TT and he's always going to fold his AK/AQ type hands no matter what size you pick, so you might as well make it bigger to target the overpairs.
 
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Tue Mar 04, 2014, 07:59 PM
(#6)
jmich73's Avatar
Since: Feb 2014
Posts: 3
Thanks for the feedback, this is excellent! I just finished playing a similar hand, different positions, tried to take your advice, I will post shortly. Did end up with bigger pot...
 
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Tue Mar 04, 2014, 09:07 PM
(#7)
Tonk Shuffle's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 618
Quote:
Originally Posted by spand42 View Post
Hi Jmich, welcome to the forums and thanks for posting this interesting hand!

As played I think betting out like you did is also good, but I would bet bigger on the turn, because he's not going to fold stuff like JJ/TT and he's always going to fold his AK/AQ type hands no matter what size you pick, so you might as well make it bigger to target the overpairs.
Often set mining the blinds is where you can get stacked set over set, but thankfully, it is rare. I would plan on having one street where you give the villain a chance to take the pot away, then check raise, usually the flop or turn.

You could put some more though into bet sizing, and considering SPRs (stack to pot ratio.) Rather than betting 1/2 pot on 3 streets, if you had bet $0.12 on the flop the pot would have been $0.39 instead of $0.31. Then a slightly smaller than 1/2 pot bet of $0.18 on the turn inflates the pot to $0.75 instead of $0.59. Then on the river a 1/4 to 1/3 pot bet is more likely to get called. Sometimes small river bets can induce opponents to shove, especially if more than 1/3 of their stack is committed. I hope that helps.

What can't figure out is that the pot should have been $0.14 pre-flop: 6 + 6 + 2. It says $0.15 when I watch it. Where did the extra $0.01 come from? There is something funky with the hand re-players math.

Good luck!
 
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Wed Mar 05, 2014, 03:40 AM
(#8)
rkleefstra's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,328
[deleted]

Last edited by rkleefstra; Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 03:40 AM.. Reason: error
 
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Wed Mar 05, 2014, 12:32 PM
(#9)
Guido-bomb's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonk Shuffle View Post
What can't figure out is that the pot should have been $0.14 pre-flop: 6 + 6 + 2. It says $0.15 when I watch it. Where did the extra $0.01 come from? There is something funky with the hand re-players math.

Good luck!
Very strange .. when they bet the turn also happens.
 
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Wed Mar 05, 2014, 01:57 PM
(#10)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
I'd check-call on this fairly dry flop. Check-raise the turn if villain barrels it (he'd be repping an overpair or nut flush draw). If he checks back the turn, lead the river.
This hand kind of illustrates the problem of playing out of position. It's really hard to get stacks in with a big hand unless villain also has a monster. If/when you decide to lead out for value, make it bigger, like 3/4 of pot.


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