Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

QQ vs nit UTG raise and BB squeeze 10NL Zoom

Old
Default
QQ vs nit UTG raise and BB squeeze 10NL Zoom - Tue Mar 04, 2014, 06:20 AM
(#1)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Just a quick line check here to see if I did ok, last night was a rough session results wise:

UTG was playing 9/7 over roughly 40 hands, its not the biggest sample, but I felt opting for the call rather than the 3bet would keep his worse hands in and I could get away from nasty flops that hit his range more than mine.

BB, how to say this politely, he is a person with a propensity to three bet liberally from BTN, SB and BB over what is an admittedly small sample, so it possibly not statistically significant yet.

Anyway, BB squeezes, UTG goes away, and because of what I take to be the BB tendencies to do this lighter than just AA-KK, I decided to 4bet with the intention of calling off a shove and hoping that my presumptions were correct.

Based on the info given, is this a reasonable line to take?

 
Old
Default
Tue Mar 04, 2014, 07:34 AM
(#2)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
In round numbers, you are calling 7 to win 15 so you need a bit over 30% equity. Against AA, KK & AK range you have almost 40‰ Sounds good to me.
 
Old
Default
Tue Mar 04, 2014, 09:04 AM
(#3)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
Given your reads, this line looks fine. When you 4Bet, you're doing it for value and should be willing to stack off. If his stack-off range is JJ+ and AK, you have 47% against this, so easily good enough pot odds to call.

Against unknown guys, calling the squeeze to keep their range wider might be the better line.
 
Old
Default
Tue Mar 04, 2014, 09:32 AM
(#4)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Your sizing is terrible.

Flat pre is fine given stats.
 
Old
Default
Tue Mar 04, 2014, 10:43 AM
(#5)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
Your sizing is terrible.
Thanks for that ultra constructive comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spand42 View Post
Given your reads, this line looks fine. When you 4Bet, you're doing it for value and should be willing to stack off. If his stack-off range is JJ+ and AK, you have 47% against this, so easily good enough pot odds to call.

Against unknown guys, calling the squeeze to keep their range wider might be the better line.
Thanks Andy, yeah, against an unknown I would probably have flatted the squeeze once the OR got out of the way, but given the reads, I felt stacking off, which essentially is what my 4bet was, unless he elected to call, which seemed unlikely, was the best option.

He had AQo, I flopped a Q to pretty much tie up the hand on the flop.

So the read was spot-on for a change.

Last edited by bhoylegend; Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 10:47 AM..
 
Old
Default
Tue Mar 04, 2014, 11:34 AM
(#6)
DiveAllIn's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 377
what should be the correct size for 4bet?
 
Old
Default
Tue Mar 04, 2014, 11:45 AM
(#7)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiveAllIn View Post
what should be the correct size for 4bet?
I had my reasons for using the size I did, whether they were flawed or not, I am not sure, but I was stacking off with this guy if he wanted to go down that line.

I wanted to make calling unprofitable for him and force him to either fold or shove, given his aggressive nature, I was pretty sure he would go with the latter of the two rather than let someone else win a hand through their aggression.

If that means I am a fish, then flip ( Using Sunday language to avoid infractiions) it I am a fish.

It made sense at the time.

In general, if I am not stacking off or doing what I did above, I go quite a bit smaller, probably about 2.2 - 2.5 with a 4bet.
 
Old
Default
Tue Mar 04, 2014, 01:15 PM
(#8)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
I think your sizing is fine. I also don't mind just ripping it all in with the 4bet. You've disguised your hand by flatting the open and now you're back raising. Back raising is usually very strong. But back raise shoving could look weak to the villain. By jamming I think you're getting called by weaker hands as low as TT, and AQs.

Having said that... I don't like to try and get tricky in ZOOM unless the sample size is larger and this villain is a regular. When we flat with QQ here, we're sort of value trapping ourselves. We flat expecting the villain to squeeze... Villain squeezed!!!! YES! "Lets get this in" actually isn't the best idea in ZOOM. I think that once you backraise 4bet vs. this villain he's only going to continue with QQ+, AK. Here's why, backraise 4bet... seriously? Your hand is face up as TT+, AQ... hmmm same hands that the villain might hand called with to a 4bet shove... After your back raise this villain will dump all his bluffs and only continue with his value range. Once he 5bet shoves you're looking at QQ+, AK

Vs an aggressive squeezer just back raise 4bet with napkins and he'll release his hand.

Let's look at QQ vs. the villains continuing range.

       Equity     Win     Tie
SB     40.21%  38.35%   1.86% { QQ }
BB     59.79%  57.93%   1.86% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }


I would 3 bet QQ pre and avoid these situations! JUST MY OPINION! Don't worry, I've done this exact same thing a ton of times but I kept running into AA and KK! So now I just back raise these aggro squeezers with GARBO. NOTE: not the smartest thing to do but it's fun when it works!

 
Old
Default
Tue Mar 04, 2014, 01:18 PM
(#9)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
He had AQo, I flopped a Q to pretty much tie up the hand on the flop.
Ha, didn't read this part of the topic.... NICE! Well you can throw my theory right out the window!
 
Old
Default
Tue Mar 04, 2014, 01:38 PM
(#10)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirt eh View Post
Ha, didn't read this part of the topic.... NICE! Well you can throw my theory right out the window!
I think in general, what you said is pretty true, but there was actually a game dynamic at play in this too.

Something I neglected to mention in my opening post, because I actually forgot about it today given my meltdown which is detailed elsewhere, but I was aware of it during the hand in the OP, is that I had played a hand with him earlier where there was some crazy action, and he got it AIPF with ATo against a villain holding 9's and lost, I remembered the hand because I folded 9's too and would have chopped with the other guy had I not folded.

So I think what you said is generally pretty sound.
 
Old
Default
Tue Mar 04, 2014, 02:01 PM
(#11)
Guido-bomb's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 545
Great play! i think dirt's shove to the squezee can work sometimes
 
Old
Default
Tue Mar 04, 2014, 02:05 PM
(#12)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
I like the first call, but I think I back-raise all in when squeezed and the first raiser folds. Shoving might look weaker and lead to more calls than making a "standard" 4-bet, which reps QQ+. I don't really want villain calling in position in a bloated pot, as the flop could come A/K high and then you just have a bluff-catcher.

Playing it like you did is also fine, if you think the 4-bet will often induce a shove, which you obviously snap-call.


Bracelet Winner
 
Old
Default
Tue Mar 04, 2014, 07:07 PM
(#13)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Rip it or 4b to a non committal amount. Doing this 'in between' sizing is a bit bad.

How can he ever shove A2s if you are already committed? If you 4b to $2.55 then you can still fold to a shove (or be perceived to)
 
Old
Default
Wed Mar 05, 2014, 02:46 AM
(#14)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
Rip it or 4b to a non committal amount. Doing this 'in between' sizing is a bit bad.

How can he ever shove A2s if you are already committed? If you 4b to $2.55 then you can still fold to a shove (or be perceived to)
I honestly no longer care if it's considered a 'bit bad' or not. Having seen him stack off light with Ahigh a little earlier I was limiting his choices to fold or shove and happy with either result.

I don't care if that's not 'optimal' or whether it's 'exploitable' or I should be 'ripping' it or 'emptying the clip' and that it's not 'balanced' or whatever current buzzwords we want to throw in.
 
Old
Default
Wed Mar 05, 2014, 07:10 AM
(#15)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
If you don't care about these things then your progress will be stunted as you move up.
 
Old
Default
Wed Mar 05, 2014, 11:07 AM
(#16)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdayy View Post
If you don't care about these things then your progress will be stunted as you move up.
I don't care about them today, I may have done yesterday, and I am not sure about tomorrow.

Last thing on my mind right now is moving up.

Only balancing I should be concerned about is the life/poker balance. Currently working with a capped life range.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com