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too 4-bet or not

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too 4-bet or not - Fri Mar 07, 2014, 06:35 PM
(#1)
stedds's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 255
here i limp behind instead of bloating the pot out of posistion to see a flop and we hit what we want i check hoping for a raise but there isnt one turn comes i lead out both call now at this point im thinking 56 and A5 complete there draws if the river is a 3 i didnt put the original limper to peel looking for a 3 on the river so a set was never really in my thoughts if he had a set of 2s hed of lead out on that board with 2 spades being out there so them two hands strike me most and the river comes a 3 i decide too put a smallish bet out to get a call and if 3 bet it wasnt a big chunk or 3 bet all in the original limper 3 bets me so them two hand that made there draws on the river set my alrm bells ringing but i was still in 2 minds whether to 4 bet and take the risk or to flat call which i did i think its a tough spot here but the only thing that annoyed me more was missing value on my hand if my thoughts on the hands they may of had was wrong whats your thoughts on this thanks
 
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Fri Mar 07, 2014, 07:09 PM
(#2)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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I don't like this play. I have done it myself before and it either lands me at the river with folds and no pot or stuck against a better hand (straight/flush/stronger set) and bust out.

The limp into the pot is an arguable one, it does hurt your value since you want to bloat the pot if you hit and continue to do so. Also, by raising you are putting your opponents on a series of hands, 4-bet here would remove the speculatory hands (suited connectors, low pairs) and leave your usual suspects like Ax or face card combinations. Limping in means you have no idea what anyone has and even on a flop that puts you on over-pair, you cant judge if you are ahead or not.


The flop check is weak unfortunately, you are trying to trap hoping one of them has a King. You won't get any action on people with 88-QQ since they may fear the King. For your trap to work, your opponent can only really have a King and anyone with the spade draw is going to love the free check to see a cheap card.


The turn is a bit strange, the 4 hits and now you bet. This reads less like you making a pair of 4s or a set of 4s and more like a steal. In addition, since the pot is only $90, although your $60 is 3/4 of the pot, $60 is only 2BB and especially in the early stages, there is little chance you won't get called with a drawing hand. If however you had bet the flop, assuming only Player 5 called you, the pot would be $240. Even with your free card on the flop, a turn bet of 3/4 pot would have been $180, 6BB and a lot harder to call with a poor hand.

Your betting needs to tell a story. It needs to make sense to anyone playing against you and when it doesn't, it shows weakness. To me, your story is that you checked into a weak hand like A7 or T2 and caught a bit of the flop, you didn't like the King but since no-one bet it on the flop you like your weak pair. You liked the 4 appearing because it didn't improve any other hand and feel you can semi-bluff representing the King. ---

The river was a little sussed for me. You bet, sure and you got raised - fantastic!
... but you called the raise. You are only behind to KK, A5, 56 and you have a set - there is no reason on earth not to play back at the raiser, a shove here would have been my play for value.

END GAME SUMMARY
The pair of 3s shouldn't have stuck in the game to see the river, they should have been pushed out by now. Whilst you can argue that they didn't have pot odds to be calling your turn bet, as i said above, the bet was a cheap gamble. the only way you could have got him off that hand would have been a much larger bet. That would have been easier if the pot was built up from the pre-flop.

You didn't want to be up against a low pair here. Your ideal hand to duel with would have been a AA or Kx or a two pair combination.

I am of course giving you arguments as to why you should have played differently and forced him to fold earlier. The reason for this is that the above play will get you into bad habits and involve you not getting paid or running into a better hand.

Always make them pay to play against you and when you have a hand, play it strong. Your ideal situation is to have a strong hand vs a slightly weaker but still strong hand. You aren't going to get this every time and you are more than often going to run into people with crappy hands.

If you are good enough to spot a board that can't beat you (poor straight/flush combinations) then trapping can work but if you play this way everytime regardless of how the board comes out, you will run into flush/straight draws more than not and getting into the bad habit of letting people have free cards will ruin you.

Last edited by baud2death; Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 07:15 PM..
 
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Fri Mar 07, 2014, 07:38 PM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
(Super-Moderator)
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Hi stedds!

With 77 in the SB and a limper in front of me, since the stacks are deep enough to setmine (over 15x the bet in everyone's stack), I'm more than happy to call and see a flop.

When I hit a set of 7's on a flop with a possible flush draw however, I absolutely need to lead bet here. A standard bet sizing with 2 opps is 2/3 pot, so I will bet 60 on the flop. The last thing I want to do here is to check and give someone the correct odds to outdraw me. If I do so and lose the hand, it's my own fault that I lose.

The turn is what should be a blank and once again, I'm going to lead out for a 2/3 pot bet since there are two opps left (if one of them folds to my flop bet, then I'll bet 1/2 pot).

The river should be another blank (unless the opp has A5 or 56, which should not happen as they should not have called two postflop bets). I'm going to make another standard value bet of 2/3 pot since there are two opps. I then get a flat and a raise to 420.
A5 and 56 really don't make sense and an opp with KK should raise preflop, so I'm discounting that hand too... and I beat everything else. Due to this, I'm going to 3-bet and since a raise will pot-commit player 1, I'm going to raise to 1605. I could shove too, but if the other opp has Kx, I don't want to bet too much and scare them off, as I want paid by them too. If this opp shoves over my bet of 1605, I'm calling.

The keys here are to lead the flop (to start building a pot and make it easier to get the opps all-in by the river) and to 3-bet enough to put player 1 all-in on the river.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)

P.S. There is nowhere in this hand for a 4-bet, as a 4-bet is a bet, raise, re-raise and re-raise again... there aren't enough bets in the hand to do this.


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Fri Mar 07, 2014, 07:49 PM
(#4)
stedds's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 255
thanks john after watching it back after posting i thoought the same thing maybe i over thought the hands that beat me and trying to set a trap backfired on me and trying to get more value out of my hand one ive learnt from already wont be making the same mistake twice much appreciated
 
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Fri Mar 07, 2014, 07:59 PM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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Yeah. Especially playing online... normally when you try to set a trap... you trap yourself.

John (JWK24)


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Sat Mar 08, 2014, 02:25 AM
(#6)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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Jwk I totally agree

Not only that but you remove one of the only tells we have, putting someone on a hand based on betting pattern.

What if a spade came? If the betting was strong from you with your set then any action on the river with a spade could be discounted some because you don't see someone drawing at such a high price. However if you check, you couldn't make that assumption
 
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Sat Mar 08, 2014, 11:24 AM
(#7)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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If a spade came on the turn, I'd just call the raise and re-evaluate on the river, as I have 10 outs to improve.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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