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NL2 6max zoom, QQ, shoving after 3bet and a caller.

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NL2 6max zoom, QQ, shoving after 3bet and a caller. - Fri Mar 14, 2014, 03:45 PM
(#1)
Luniaril's Avatar
Since: Jan 2014
Posts: 33
Well this is my first time playing zoom and was expecting people to be extremely tight and tried to adjust my game accordingly.

i just decided to take a 1 Buyin shot. had few good hands at start and then some loong fastfold playing this hand happened.

by the point i shoved, my thinking was; utg min raised, some guy 3 bet and someone called that 3bet, i should be folding they're all probably tight and my hand is most likely behind some of those. then i was "eeh, what the heck, this is definitely gonna be a coin flip with my hand underdog against KK or AA cooler but this is a flip im willing to take, go double or bust. then i shoved..

what is the correct move here for +Ev ? what would you guys do in this situation ?


second question. (please answer this one too. really curious about it.)
what would you guys do if this was regular table instead of zoom but you sit recently and still dont have any reads on villains yet. ( reason for assuming regular table, not expecting people to be tight like zoom.)


Last edited by Luniaril; Fri Mar 14, 2014 at 03:47 PM..
 
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Fri Mar 14, 2014, 05:16 PM
(#2)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,346
Readless, or against loose players, I'm nearly always 4-bet squeezing. Shoving seems excessive though. I want to get called by worse hands like JJ/TT, and they will often fold if you jam it in like this.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Fri Mar 14, 2014, 05:16 PM
(#3)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi Luniaril,

I think the best option in this spot is to 4bet. Calling will give us trouble post flop in a MW pot OOP unless we plan to set mine and folding the top of our range is too tight. I would not shove however. I would make it 0.65 which practically has us all in against V6 but more importantly we can get called by worse hands from V2. I think your concern with this hand shows good positional awareness since we have seen a 3bet vs an UTG who in general would be opening a tight range. But because they min open I would like to think otherwise. I would this the same way on a regular table with no reads.
 
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Fri Mar 14, 2014, 05:37 PM
(#4)
Luniaril's Avatar
Since: Jan 2014
Posts: 33
Thanks for the comment Arty



Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Hi Luniaril,

I think the best option in this spot is to 4bet. Calling will give us trouble post flop in a MW pot OOP unless we plan to set mine and folding the top of our range is too tight. I would not shove however. I would make it 0.65 which practically has us all in against V6 but more importantly we can get called by worse hands from V2. I think your concern with this hand shows good positional awareness since we have seen a 3bet vs an UTG who in general would be opening a tight range. But because they min open I would like to think otherwise. I would this the same way on a regular table with no reads.
yes i was really concerned about their hand strength, reason i shoved rather than 4bet, there was already enough agression to represent quite high strenght, also it's zoom so im expecting to be even tighter and it's a multiway pot.

utg min raised, i was thinking he had some high Ax, something suited, or 66-JJ set mining and SB smooth called a 3bet so i was thinking he's have some broadway suited connector porbably like AK AJ or KQ smth like that, thats why i was scared it would go 4handed to flop and someone will connect. also everone folding looked acceptable aswell for me since there was smth like 16-20BB dead money in the pot already. i would rather get the 30c safely at there instead of get busted agains someone connecting flop with higher pair, set, straight, flush etc...

geoVARTA, am i making a correct assumption with this way of thiking ? or do i need to improve my mentality and decision making ?

edit: now that i think about it, maybe getting hands like 99-JJ in to pot would be better for me but as said above i was scared someone would connect the flop, but if i had KK AA i would definitely 4bet for more value

Last edited by Luniaril; Fri Mar 14, 2014 at 05:42 PM..
 
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Sat Mar 15, 2014, 05:45 AM
(#5)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hey Luniaril, I think it's counter-intuitive when you say that you shove because you are concerned they have a strong starting hand range. Let me explain. Say someone forexample plays the following hands only when they open raise: {AA-77, AK-AT, KQ, KJs, QJs} that's almost a 10% starting range now if we call their bet then we get to play against their entire range OTF. Say we are playing 100nl and they open raise for 3$, we then 3bet jam 100$ into them. What hands will they call with? I think at most 3% or only the top of their range: AA-JJ, AK. What if we raise to 9$ or 10$ then now they can continue with a wider range than just AA-JJ, AK; now they can call with AQ, KQs, TT. So if you say they have a strong range of hands then shoving will not fold their top of their range, as a matter of fact that is all we get called by That's why I say that we can 4bet smaller which will either allow our opponent to call with worse or raise us as a bluff; either way we are planning to get the money in preflop. Hope this makes sense!
 
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Sun Mar 16, 2014, 09:29 AM
(#6)
Luniaril's Avatar
Since: Jan 2014
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
Hey Luniaril, I think it's counter-intuitive when you say that you shove because you are concerned they have a strong starting hand range. Let me explain. Say someone forexample plays the following hands only when they open raise: {AA-77, AK-AT, KQ, KJs, QJs} that's almost a 10% starting range now if we call their bet then we get to play against their entire range OTF. Say we are playing 100nl and they open raise for 3$, we then 3bet jam 100$ into them. What hands will they call with? I think at most 3% or only the top of their range: AA-JJ, AK. What if we raise to 9$ or 10$ then now they can continue with a wider range than just AA-JJ, AK; now they can call with AQ, KQs, TT. So if you say they have a strong range of hands then shoving will not fold their top of their range, as a matter of fact that is all we get called by That's why I say that we can 4bet smaller which will either allow our opponent to call with worse or raise us as a bluff; either way we are planning to get the money in preflop. Hope this makes sense!
Yes, makes perfect sense, thanks
 
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Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:50 AM
(#7)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Standard shove in NL2. Small stack indicates will to play, further he is accustomed being targeted with shoves in quite wide range. His stack size makes this easy to play, his calling range against shove is wide enough.

If you are against 4bet – you are mostly against AA,KK, especially if the 4bet sizing is small. One could even say that by 4betting against small stack you are turning QQ to a bluff, representing KK or AA , not that he would care. There is also a problem with another player, Villain2 is indicated that he likes to call with his hand, if you 4bet expecting a call from Villain 6, V2 will most likely join in. QQ out of position in multiway pot is not that fun, surely EV+ but still.

One of the plays here, is to 4b with size to put V6 AI, but this is something non standard and even if I do it, I’m not sure if that is good play, but surely something you should think about.

Don’t get me wrong, I also agree that you shoved in wrong reason.

Last edited by braveslice; Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 12:08 PM..
 
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Sun Mar 16, 2014, 12:33 PM
(#8)
Praydk's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 504
utg open, 3bet vs utg - arent those signs of strenght? What do we expect to get shoved by from the utg after our 4bet?
 
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Sun Mar 16, 2014, 01:25 PM
(#9)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
I missed the UTG

That said, min bet is usually very weak hand in NL2, even when utg. Maybe I saw it, but disregarded? But yeah, complicates thing and my initial analysis is probably wrong.

But imo utg min betting really doesn't change small stacker's range, I know that in theory it should, but it hardly ever does. And it changes my range only little bit. It does change the after flop play a lot though.

Last edited by braveslice; Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 08:08 AM..
 

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