Home / Community / Forum / Support Area / Support Center /

Shooter Factor Formula Incorrect?

Old
Default
Shooter Factor Formula Incorrect? - Fri Mar 21, 2014, 12:05 AM
(#1)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
I am being led to believe by correspondence with PSO support that the formula currently displayed in the Shooting Stats promtion for Shooter factor (copied below as currently shown) is not correct.

Shooter = (M*0.01*(((P+Q+R)/(S+T+U))*100)/5) + (((P+Q+R)/(S+T+U)*100)/5)*(1-(150/N))

Where:

M = Hand Won at Showdown
N = Total Hands
P = Bet on Flop
Q = Bet on Turn
R = Bet on River
S = Saw Flop
T = Saw Turn
U = Saw River

I am told that M is not number of hands won at showdown but % of hands - which does not make a lot of sense as the % will never be 100% and then multiplying it by 0.01 would make it less than 1% - don't even see how this would work.

If the formula is not as advertised then PSO need to sort it asap.

Ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:01 AM
(#2)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,034
(Community Coordinator)
Hey Ed,

I've changed the text to 'M = Percentage of Hands Won at Showdown'

Thanks for pointing that out

Cheers,
Raiser


Moderator

Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 09:48 AM
(#3)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by royalraise85 View Post
Hey Ed,

I've changed the text to 'M = Percentage of Hands Won at Showdown'

Thanks for pointing that out

Cheers,
Raiser

Thanks Raiser

However this was serious misinformation - and three months toil I can't get back.

It has put me at a severe disadvantage over my three months project trying to score highly on the Shooter Factor scoreboard. This small change completely alters the strategy required at the river of every hand seen. No doubt the germans have open folded so many rivers that I would have bet or called.

No wonder the German player Tschakah had been killing the format, winning over $500 from the Shooter Factor alone. I just checked the intellipoker.de site - though of course I cannot tell when their 'prosentsatz' (%) was showing in their detailed explanation of the formula.

Hier klicken um die exakte Formel anzeigen zu lassen

Shooter = (M*0.01*(((P+Q+R)/(S+T+U))*100)/5) + (((P+Q+R)/(S+T+U)*100)/5)*(1-(150/N))

Wo:

M = Prozentsatz der gewonnen Hände im Showdown
N = Hände insgesamt
P = Einsatz auf dem Flop
Q = Einsatz auf dem Turn
R = Einsatz auf dem River
S = Flop gesehen
T = Turn gesehen
U = River gesehen

Viel Erfolg an den Tischen!


Read more: Shooting Stats - jeden Monat $2.000 Preise http://www.intellipoker.de/articles/...#ixzz2wbk6XITK

I can only say this misinformation on the PSO site has cost me a lot of time and effort and very likely cash too.

Looks like it is back to the drawing board for next month. I will alter my strategy for the remainder of this month, though I don't think there is time to get my 50% win at showdown stat up very high in the last ten days.

stats so far

2385 Hands
57 Showdowns Won (the figure I was using for M)
50.44% Showdown Winner (the figure I should have been using for M)

Hugely disappointed by PSO on this one.



Ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 09:52 AM
(#4)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,034
(Community Coordinator)
Hey Ed,

All sites we're corrected this morning as soon as I let them know

Cheers,
Raiser


Moderator

Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 11:46 AM
(#5)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by royalraise85 View Post
Hey Ed,

All sites we're corrected this morning as soon as I let them know

Cheers,
Raiser
So was it just some 'inside information' then?

PSO Support had been VERY slow in answering my queries - 19 days since I asked for further information as I could not get the formula to work out despite detailing every flop I saw and every post flop bet I made over the last couple of months. I am afraid I still have to assume that the players who have been winning these leaderboards had proper information which was either incorrect, unavailable or unclear here at PSO.

I know it's not your fault Raiser - but as you can probably tell I am more than miffed at this.

Ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 01:28 PM
(#6)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Just to keep rolling on with my gripe

Are PSO entirely sure that this was what was intended? Is the originator of the formula still around? And are they a computer wizz or a poker player or both?

It makes a lot more sense to me for M to be the absolute number of hands won than a %.

I won't explain fully why here - but the possibility of having M as a percentage being 100% is quite high.

If it was intended to be the absolute number of showdowns won, getting M up to 100 or above takes a lot more active play.

Ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 05:22 PM
(#7)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,034
(Community Coordinator)
I don't know Ed, you sent the email to Support to get the ball rolling on this one

The message came through to me this morning that there was a mistake and I alerted the guys in the other languages about it.

I'm certainly no expert on formulas, it took me two years to get my head around the rule of 2 and 4 so this stats stuff is way out of my league

Support might be slow about getting back to you on this because they have to chase the people that write the formulas and code that works with the PokerStars date that's received (and they don't work weekends etc ) but slow and all I'd suggest keep dealing with Support on it as they are they only ones that will be able to give you the correct answers on this.

Cheers Ed,


Moderator

Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 05:25 PM
(#8)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by royalraise85 View Post
I don't know Ed, you sent the email to Support to get the ball rolling on this one

The message came through to me this morning that there was a mistake and I alerted the guys in the other languages about it.

I'm certainly no expert on formulas, it took me two years to get my head around the rule of 2 and 4 so this stats stuff is way out of my league

Support might be slow about getting back to you on this because they have to chase the people that write the formulas and code that works with the PokerStars date that's received (and they don't work weekends etc ) but slow and all I'd suggest keep dealing with Support on it as they are they only ones that will be able to give you the correct answers on this.

Cheers Ed,
Cheer Raiser

I am still dealing with support - but this was obviously something that needed to be aired in the interests of the users here.

Thanks for your help.



Ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:02 PM
(#9)
thispaul's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 17
Ack! I also spent a fair amount of time discussing this with support back in November (they added the 0.01 and some missing brackets after my query, but I gave up on the discussion after I qualified for the PSPL in December and couldn't generate more test data.)

I'd come to the conclusion that the definition of "bet the F/T/R" was somehow different to the one I was using - perhaps including raises after a previous bettor.

Using M as %wonSD now gives me exactly the same numbers as the formula (allowing for a slight difference in number of hands counted) - assuming that the implemented formula hasn't changed since January, which is when my data is from.

You have no idea how long I spent trying to work out the correct formula - I'm kicking myself that I did see this possibility. Incidentally, I doubt that Tschakah has inside information - he probably just did a slightly better job reverse engineering the formula than me.



And I totally agree with Ed - M as a % is stupid. It should be number of hands won as SD, as originally stated for the formula to make even vague poker sense.

Paul

Last edited by thispaul; Fri Mar 21, 2014 at 07:09 PM..
 
Old
Default
Sun Mar 23, 2014, 05:46 PM
(#10)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by thispaul View Post
Ack! I also spent a fair amount of time discussing this with support back in November (they added the 0.01 and some missing brackets after my query, but I gave up on the discussion after I qualified for the PSPL in December and couldn't generate more test data.)

I'd come to the conclusion that the definition of "bet the F/T/R" was somehow different to the one I was using - perhaps including raises after a previous bettor.

Using M as %wonSD now gives me exactly the same numbers as the formula (allowing for a slight difference in number of hands counted) - assuming that the implemented formula hasn't changed since January, which is when my data is from.

You have no idea how long I spent trying to work out the correct formula - I'm kicking myself that I did see this possibility. Incidentally, I doubt that Tschakah has inside information - he probably just did a slightly better job reverse engineering the formula than me.



And I totally agree with Ed - M as a % is stupid. It should be number of hands won as SD, as originally stated for the formula to make even vague poker sense.

Paul
I am still batting this back and forth with support.

I am trying to be helpful but getting more frustrated with the 'we apologise and we have fixed it' line - I hope this gets sent up the food chain.

I am not accusing anyone of conspiracy or cheating, by 'inside information' I only meant that the questions I asked directly and privately of support this month were most likely also asked elsewhere months earlier - and the answers given - but that it was not picked up that this was an issue in the promo details - so whoever asked first and was given clarification had a huge advantage.

As would those with the 'reverse-engineering' skills that could fathom it out themselves.

Neither of which address the misinformation the majority had to work with.

The fact that I have openly shared this and (as far as I gather) caused the edit to the promo details is just that I am the first to realise the full implication. If I had kept quiet I would have potentially been in that same favored position with whoever else 'asked and was told'.

So - I may have cooked my golden goose...

I now think PSO need to PROMINENTLY ADVERTISE the change and PROMINENTLY APOLOGISE - not just to me.

Then I am going to OWN the STATS LEADERBOARD in future for as long as I have the correct info...



[Excepting of course if they ban me for being oh so helpful]

Ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner



Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Sun Mar 23, 2014 at 05:56 PM..
 
Old
Default
Sun Mar 23, 2014, 05:54 PM
(#11)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Well at least my last effort has now been 'forwarded to supervisor'.

Ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Mon Mar 31, 2014, 11:56 PM
(#12)
TOO2COO's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,882
(Super-Moderator)
Coping post from other forums and posting them here is a violation of the rules please do not do that again

Brian


Super-Moderator

7 Time Bracelet Winner



 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com