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25NL ZOOM, AKo in CO gotta dump?

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25NL ZOOM, AKo in CO gotta dump? - Fri Mar 21, 2014, 01:02 PM
(#1)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
In this a spot... 4b fold? 4b jam?

Villain: unknown ZERO hands / playing on a mobile phone

 
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Fri Mar 21, 2014, 01:42 PM
(#2)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
I don't think turning AK in to the bluff is a good idea, I don't fold after I 4bet nor after I 3bet with such a strong hand.
 
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Fri Mar 21, 2014, 02:53 PM
(#3)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shichi-77 View Post
I don't think turning AK in to the bluff is a good idea, I don't fold after I 4bet nor after I 3bet with such a strong hand.
This but his small 5bet looks like AA, he would ship AK QQ i would imagine and theres noway would he think your 4betting light and think he has fold equity with a small 5bet.

Maybe someone can come in and do the math, i should of learnt to do this sort of math by now im to busy messing around with other stuff atm, still though im not really bothered about the math here even if it was a stack off that small 5bet looks like AA and AA only to me.
 
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Fri Mar 21, 2014, 03:44 PM
(#4)
Shichi-77's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 607
If you are putting him on just AA , what math will help? If we aren't intend to GII with AK why are we
4betting ? It sounds like I don't fold AK , As for me 4bet folding is the worst if I don't want to play on stack I just call

Last edited by Shichi-77; Fri Mar 21, 2014 at 03:52 PM..
 
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Fri Mar 21, 2014, 03:57 PM
(#5)
kalahwang's Avatar
Since: Nov 2013
Posts: 135
villain don't top up to full stack. Could be a little loose and fishy.

Just 4bet big and play for stacks.
 
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Fri Mar 21, 2014, 04:00 PM
(#6)
Sentras's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 122
As for my feel in 25NL I do notice getting AKo in against a 5B is rarely profitable. There are a few maniacs out there doing light 4B's but mostly I notice (against me at least) a very very tight 4B range. And that consist nearly only out of AA and KK.
AKo QQ JJ they tend to shove 5B it.

However this guy didn't start with 100BB, but then again fish don't often squeeze and 5B it. (only the maniacs.)
I would have folded.

However I would have made it $6.75 or $7 4B (This generally accomplishes the same and as it isn't hard to get it in postflop, you can save money preflop.) or bigger so I can't get away. I prefer the smaller.
 
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Fri Mar 21, 2014, 04:43 PM
(#7)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shichi-77 View Post
if I don't want to play on stack I just call
I think calling is the worst option here as we will be sandwiched between the 3better and the button. We can 4bet light/4bet for value in this spot I think. Sooooooo having said that I don't like my sizing. And this is where I see Sentras is on the same page as me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentras View Post
made it $6.75 or $7 4B (This generally accomplishes the same and as it isn't hard to get it in postflop, you can save money preflop.) or bigger so I can't get away. I prefer the smaller.
I think Sentras is right on here anywhere from $6.50 to $7. Now if the villain makes this awkward 5bet I think we should throw the hand away.

The problem I had in this hand is that I 4bet too large IMO.
 
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Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:32 PM
(#8)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shichi-77 View Post
If you are putting him on just AA , what math will help? If we aren't intend to GII with AK why are we
4betting ? It sounds like I don't fold AK , As for me 4bet folding is the worst if I don't want to play on stack I just call
I was on about the math of being priced in vs a range, which is what your talking about when you say you wont fold AK when 3betting, so i mean can we profitably call a 17.70 shove vs QQ+/AK and im pretty sure you can, so i would of 4 bet called the ship but that min 5bet looks like AA only so i would of folded.

As for 4betting AK as a bluff i dont see why we would want to do that, when you shouldnt be 4 bet bluffing an unknown anyway.
I would of just flatted myself pre as well.
 
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Sun Mar 23, 2014, 02:40 AM
(#9)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
I think a different four-bet size would have served us pretty well. I prefer $6 here as my standard. We don't want to discourage action from KQ/AQ type hands, which is what 7.50 achieves.

I don't mind folding, going with it might be okay. I don't know what the slider looks like on the phone/tablet interface. Obviously if this was 100% intentional I think it looks very strong, often, and we can fold.

Every so often in these spots you see 64s, so I think we've probably put in too much of our stack with 7.50 to fold, but I am going to groan and see AA decently often. We aren't doing crazy-bad versus KK though.

Sorry I don't have more productive comments at the decision point things are murky.

But to improve your fundamentals four-betting smaller will be a great money maker in this and an assortment of other situations
 
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Sun Mar 23, 2014, 10:01 AM
(#10)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
I think a different four-bet size would have served us pretty well. I prefer $6 here as my standard. We don't want to discourage action from KQ/AQ type hands, which is what 7.50 achieves.

I don't mind folding, going with it might be okay. I don't know what the slider looks like on the phone/tablet interface. Obviously if this was 100% intentional I think it looks very strong, often, and we can fold.

Every so often in these spots you see 64s, so I think we've probably put in too much of our stack with 7.50 to fold, but I am going to groan and see AA decently often. We aren't doing crazy-bad versus KK though.

Sorry I don't have more productive comments at the decision point things are murky.

But to improve your fundamentals four-betting smaller will be a great money maker in this and an assortment of other situations

So you don't mind 4betting small to fold vs a 5bet from an unknown?

Wouldn't it be better to 4bet an Ax blocker when you have stats and you know villain is getting out of line and flat AK vs unknowns?

The reason why i didn't like 4bet folding AK and im sure dirt is 4bet folding QQ as well from some of his posts i read is because i watched a series on 3 betting and he said that to 4bet bluff a player he should have a high 3bet preferably 10+ with a 4bet fold of 50% and if they 4bet fold more than that he don't mind 4bet bluffing players 3betting slightly less.

Which was why i don't see why 4betting strong hands to fold vs an unknown is good, is there some solid reason i missed for why thats better?
 
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Sun Mar 23, 2014, 12:12 PM
(#11)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
Mike,

I'm not 4b bluffing here… I'm 4betting for value, but when the villain comes back with a 5b… then his hand just became a lot stronger. He's not 5betting with AQ, KQ as Gareth explained. flatting is the worst option IMO because we're sandwiched between the squeezer and the BTN. The main problem was my sizing. I made it too large and I almost folded… but because of how big I 4b. I 6b shoved…. he had AA.
 

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