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MTTs - Sitting Out and Blinding Down - When do hands get showndown?

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MTTs - Sitting Out and Blinding Down - When do hands get showndown? - Fri Mar 21, 2014, 04:13 PM
(#1)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
I was sitting out at the end of an MTT and blinded down.

I was forced all-in in the BB at 100/200 and was dealt AT

PokerStars Hand #113616380925: Tournament #872598897, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2014/03/21 17:51:53 WET [2014/03/21 13:51:53 ET]
Table '872598897 811' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: petno007 (690 in chips)
Seat 2: EdinFreeMan (175 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: AleksandrY60 (5100 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 4: semdt (305 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: s!xoja (7165 in chips)
Seat 6: PochitoPoker (110 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: iVusal (295 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 8: politelen01 (11830 in chips)
Seat 9: ALPACHINO21 (14715 in chips)
petno007: posts the ante 20
EdinFreeMan: posts the ante 20
AleksandrY60: posts the ante 20
semdt: posts the ante 20
s!xoja: posts the ante 20
PochitoPoker: posts the ante 20
iVusal: posts the ante 20
politelen01: posts the ante 20
ALPACHINO21: posts the ante 20
petno007: posts small blind 100
EdinFreeMan: posts big blind 155 and is all-in
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to EdinFreeMan [Ad Th]
AleksandrY60: folds
semdt: folds
s!xoja: folds
PochitoPoker: folds
iVusal: folds
politelen01: folds
ALPACHINO21: raises 245 to 400
petno007: folds
EdinFreeMan: folds
Uncalled bet (245) returned to ALPACHINO21



So here my hand was folded preflop even though I was forced all-in.

Sometimes I notice sitting out players hands are turned up and they run the board to showdown - such that the sitting out player will possibly win the hand at showdown and gain the pot even though they are still sitting out and continuing to blind down.

Is there some technical rule about which circumstances the cards are folded and which they run against an opponent with a chance to win the pot?

Ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner



Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Fri Mar 21, 2014 at 04:17 PM..
 
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Fri Mar 21, 2014, 04:29 PM
(#2)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
I've never seen anyone sitting out who's all in who gets to play their hand. Their hand always gets mucked before any cards get dealt in my experience.
 
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Fri Mar 21, 2014, 04:32 PM
(#3)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by spand42 View Post
I've never seen anyone sitting out who's all in who gets to play their hand. Their hand always gets mucked before any cards get dealt in my experience.
I have seen it many times - it always gets a laugh at the table when the sitting-out players random hand wins what is usually just a part of the pot. I don't have an example to hand but if I find one I will post it.

Ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:18 PM
(#4)
thispaul's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 17
I'm pretty sure it always behaves the way it did for you on PS - at least now (it might not have been the case in the past). Other sites play out the hand even for sitting out players.

(Of course, about 40% of what I say turns out to be incorrect.)

Paul
 
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Fri Mar 21, 2014, 07:38 PM
(#5)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by thispaul View Post
I'm pretty sure it always behaves the way it did for you on PS - at least now (it might not have been the case in the past). Other sites play out the hand even for sitting out players.

(Of course, about 40% of what I say turns out to be incorrect.)

Paul
Well if 40% of what you say is wrong - and I factor for about 50% of the things I think I see happening are actually just happening in my own head - who knows what the reality is...

I'm 50% certain this does happen - or did - cannot remember the last time I saw it though. Will just have to wait for the next time I see it - if I ever do.

If it never happens then I will earn more than if it happens on certain rare occasions.



Ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri Mar 21, 2014, 08:30 PM
(#6)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
I agree with Ed, sometimes the sitting player's hand is played out. I can't remember the specific circumstances, but I have seen this. I'll keep my eyes open for an example.

 
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Fri Mar 21, 2014, 08:35 PM
(#7)
m1ndmaster's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 44
Hi guys,

I'm unsure if i understood correctly, but my guess is that some players call instead of raising therefore the hand goes to showdown.. while if u were to raise, player automatically folds.. pretty sure it is due to stack sizes.. and it only happens when player stting out is all in..

hope this helps,

best regards
 
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Fri Mar 21, 2014, 08:41 PM
(#8)
herbalerv's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 217
SilverStar
On 888 poker the hand runs, not on stars.
 
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Fri Mar 21, 2014, 10:21 PM
(#9)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,824
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
The hand runs on IF.... the sitter is all in and the other player has equal to more chips in already.

Ex: SB posts blind of 500, BB is all in for 500 or under.... the hand will run. If the opp in the hand raises or has more chips put in voluntarily, then the hand is mucked.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat Mar 22, 2014, 05:36 AM
(#10)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
The hand runs on IF.... the sitter is all in and the other player has equal to more chips in already.

Ex: SB posts blind of 500, BB is all in for 500 or under.... the hand will run. If the opp in the hand raises or has more chips put in voluntarily, then the hand is mucked.

John (JWK24)
Cheers John

Thought there was some situation I had seen it happen - and that makes perfect sense.



Ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 07:21 PM
(#11)
thispaul's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 17
So, yes, I'm definitely wrong...

PokerStars Hand #114265882690: Tournament #885887030, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (125/250) - 2014/04/03 23:03:47 WET [2014/04/03 18:03:47 ET]
Table '885887030 404' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Player 1 (50960 in chips)
Seat 2: Player 2 (880 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: Player 3 (105 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 4: Player 4 (3545 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: Player 5 (9415 in chips)
Seat 6: Player 6 (8375 in chips)
Seat 8: thispaul (260 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 9: Player 9 (790 in chips)
Player 1: posts the ante 25
Player 2: posts the ante 25
Player 3: posts the ante 25
Player 4: posts the ante 25
Player 5: posts the ante 25
Player 6: posts the ante 25
thispaul: posts the ante 25
Player 9: posts the ante 25
Player 6: posts small blind 125
thispaul: posts big blind 235 and is all-in
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to thispaul [4h Th]
Player 9: folds
Player 1: folds
Player 2: folds
Player 3: folds
Player 4: folds
Player 5: folds
Player 6: calls 110
*** FLOP *** [Qc Ac Tc]
*** TURN *** [Qc Ac Tc] [8c]
*** RIVER *** [Qc Ac Tc 8c] [Qh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Player 6: shows [Jc 7d] (a flush, Ace high)
thispaul: mucks hand
Player 6 collected 670 from pot
thispaul finished the tournament in 1568th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 670 | Rake 0
Board [Qc Ac Tc 8c Qh]
Seat 1: Player 1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Player 2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Player 3 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Player 4 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Player 5 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Player 6 (small blind) showed [Jc 7d] and won (670) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 8: thispaul (big blind) mucked [4h Th]
Seat 9: Player 9 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

(Sorry, it's too late in the evening for me to be bothered with trying to work out how the replayer works...)

In this case, the hand played out because only the small blind was left to play before the all-in BB (me) and could only call to my all-in amount.

Paul

Last edited by thispaul; Sat Apr 05, 2014 at 04:13 AM.. Reason: Removed player names - even though I think there was nothing useful to learn about them from the hand.
 
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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 07:32 PM
(#12)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Thanks for posting this Paul - thispaul

I haven't seen an actual example to post myself since I asked the question.

You have 260 before the blinds/antes post.

You pay 25 ante then cannot quite post the full BB of 250 with only 235 left.

Table folds to the small blind, who has a big stack, but only has to call 110 to make the 260 you have put in, so they are paying 25 + 125 + 110 = 260 less than the BB+ante.

So the hand runs.

Nasty one.

Trying to look at ways to avoid this - but its not easy.

Cheers

ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner



Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Thu Apr 03, 2014 at 07:36 PM..
 
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Fri Apr 04, 2014, 09:57 PM
(#13)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286


Player 2 is sitting out, think this example is the same as the one above.

Last edited by joy7108; Fri Apr 04, 2014 at 09:58 PM.. Reason: typo
 
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Sat Apr 05, 2014, 04:07 AM
(#14)
thispaul's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by joy7108 View Post
Player 2 is sitting out, think this example is the same as the one above.
Hi Joy,

The hand stops in the replayer (for me) after the BB puts his chips in, so it's a bit difficult to see what happened next, but I would expect that if the all-in BB was sitting out, he'd auto-fold and the SB would collect all the chips. Is that what happened?

(I'm not sure if you're saying "here's an example like the one above and it plays out" or "here's an example like the one above and it doesn't play out".)

Either way, I think it's not the same as the example I gave. It might be comparable to JWK24s example, but I'm not sure it he's correct - I think his example only plays out if both players have EXACTLY 500 chips in.

Kind regards,
Paul
 
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Tue Apr 08, 2014, 04:08 AM
(#15)
cleobuddy's Avatar
Since: Jan 2014
Posts: 67
I just tried putting this to the test in a game. Was sitting out on the BB, couldn't cover it (automatically went all-in) and the first occurrence of anyone betting/calling more than I was in the pot for mucked me. I would assume that the SB's actions would do the same if he had a chance to bet/call. In the case of the SB initial contribution being larger than the BB's All-in contribution there isn't that action that mucks the BB's hand so it's possible the hand might run, but that's a very specific and probably uncommon thing.
 
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Thu Apr 17, 2014, 10:33 AM
(#16)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
This is the first example I have seen at my OSL MTT tables since posting the op question.

Player to my right is sitting out in the Big Blind - the player in the small blind limps in rather than raise and the hands are turned up and the hand runs to showdown.



For some reason the replayer doesn't show the players hole cards until the end, but live play they were turned face up before the flop was dealt.

Ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner



Last edited by EdinFreeMan; Thu Apr 17, 2014 at 10:36 AM..
 
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Thu Apr 17, 2014, 05:50 PM
(#17)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
well I suffered the fate myself today too - sitting out but forced to run my BB hand v a limper

http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-h...453_64A23DB01C

PokerStars Hand #114932577420: Tournament #885887139, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (80/160) - 2014/04/17 22:42:36 WET [2014/04/17 17:42:36 ET]
Table '885887139 155' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: sharkcard1 (19510 in chips)
Seat 2: Samu 52 (2515 in chips)
Seat 3: 1bobbest7 (6925 in chips)
Seat 5: okowko (15055 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 6: mcarthur001 (31745 in chips)
Seat 7: EdinFreeMan (175 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 8: F.O.U.1179 (825 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 9: alsat78 (15685 in chips)
sharkcard1: posts the ante 15
Samu 52: posts the ante 15
1bobbest7: posts the ante 15
okowko: posts the ante 15
mcarthur001: posts the ante 15
EdinFreeMan: posts the ante 15
F.O.U.1179: posts the ante 15
alsat78: posts the ante 15
mcarthur001: posts small blind 80
EdinFreeMan: posts big blind 160 and is all-in
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to EdinFreeMan [Qd Kh]
F.O.U.1179: folds
alsat78: folds
sharkcard1: folds
Samu 52: calls 160
1bobbest7: folds
okowko: folds
mcarthur001: folds
*** FLOP *** [Tc Jh Kd]
*** TURN *** [Tc Jh Kd] [3h]
*** RIVER *** [Tc Jh Kd 3h] [Kc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
EdinFreeMan: shows [Qd Kh] (three of a kind, Kings)
Samu 52: shows [9c Th] (two pair, Kings and Tens)
EdinFreeMan collected 520 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 520 | Rake 0
Board [Tc Jh Kd 3h Kc]
Seat 1: sharkcard1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Samu 52 showed [9c Th] and lost with two pair, Kings and Tens
Seat 3: 1bobbest7 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: okowko (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: mcarthur001 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: EdinFreeMan (big blind) showed [Qd Kh] and won (520) with three of a kind, Kings
Seat 8: F.O.U.1179 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: alsat78 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

At least I had a good result.

Ed


4 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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