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5NL 6m zoom - raise QQ for thin value OTR

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5NL 6m zoom - raise QQ for thin value OTR - Fri Mar 21, 2014, 05:29 PM
(#1)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Villain no info.

Question: Was my thin value OTR too thin, or was it for value? Should I call the shove?

His hand felt like 99-JJ, so went for value OTR.

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

Hero (Button) ($7)
SB ($4.09)
BB ($4.90)
UTG ($9.77)
MP ($5.07)
CO ($5.03)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, Q
UTG raises to $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, 1 fold, BB calls $0.25, UTG calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.92) 7, 4, K (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.92) K (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, 1 fold

River: ($1.22) K (2 players)
UTG bets $1.45, Hero raises to $2.90

Last edited by braveslice; Fri Mar 21, 2014 at 05:39 PM..
 
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Fri Mar 21, 2014, 05:47 PM
(#2)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
Too thin! If he has 99-JJ, he's not calling once you raise him OTR. OTR I would just call. We beat all his thin value bets (99-JJ) and lose to Kx/AA when he re-raises OTR.
 
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Sat Mar 22, 2014, 05:40 AM
(#3)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Ok, I had a feeling that this might be wrong.

I think this would be ok in NL2, what you say? Surely there I would get a call with pairs to my raise.
 
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Sat Mar 22, 2014, 06:04 AM
(#4)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Hands like this are where I seem to differ from a lot of people on the forum, usually those that player higher than I do, because I think we can get called by worse a lot of the time and that we are not value owning ourselves the majority of the time.

2NL, this can definitely be a value raise, depending on your opponent, if you know they are a competent reg it is of course never a raise because they know what they are doing. They just haven't moved up for whatever reason.

On that board, at 2NL, a significant amount of players will have two thoughts in their heads. 1) Well, he cant have a King, because there are three on the board, and no-one ever has quads, and 2) I have a full house, I can't fold a hand that strong, completely missing the fact that any higher pocket pair has a full house.

Villains at 2NL can even play pocket 7's and 4's this way also completely missing the fact that while they had a full house on the turn, it has been counterfeited for them because any overpair now has Kings full instead of their 7's and 4's full.

Just for clarity, I'm not saying it is an insta-raise by any stretch of the imagination, but there are certainly arguments for it at 2NL in my humble and ultimately misguided opinion.
 
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Sat Mar 22, 2014, 06:24 AM
(#5)
Low Rated's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 114
It's not about the limit ur playing it's about the villain. This particular villain is one who we do not have any reads on so without a very good reason we probably shouldn't be raising here. If villain shoves over us we have to call off and hope that we are best which is kinda ugly.

Personally I wouldn't be raising here but who knows, it maybe correct versus this villain.
 
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Sat Mar 22, 2014, 07:27 AM
(#6)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Rated View Post
It's not about the limit ur playing it's about the villain.
That's true of course. I just think there is a lot more opportunity at 2NL because the general population of the Zoom pool is worse there. I guess that should really have gone without saying, and I shouldnt have bothered, but....
 
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Sat Mar 22, 2014, 08:00 AM
(#7)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
I'm actually not keen on checking with QQ here vs two opponents; you are giving away more free cards against two players.
I would cbet here something like 1/2 pot to get called by JJ, TT, 99. The way the hand might play out is something like this: bet, check, call/bet. I'm not raising river because at this point hands like JJ/TT seem to be bluff catchers and might be more inclined to x/c instead of bet.
 
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Sat Mar 22, 2014, 01:04 PM
(#8)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
I don't get that cbet advise. I just learned not to cbet my made but weakish hand and now I should learn to bet it sometimes Surprisingly hard given that you only have 2 choices there

The hand was actually quite funny. Here is it again with the showdown. Note that he was a real showoff

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com

Hero (Button) ($7)
SB ($4.09)
BB ($4.90)
UTG ($9.77)
MP ($5.07)
CO ($5.03)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, Q
UTG raises to $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, 1 fold, BB calls $0.25, UTG calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.92) 7, 4, K (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.92) K (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, 1 fold

River: ($1.22) K (2 players)
UTG bets $1.45, Hero raises to $2.90, UTG calls $1.45

Total pot: $7.02 | Rake: $0.29

Hero had Q, Q (full house, Kings over Queens).
UTG had A, K (four of a kind, Kings).
Outcome: UTG won $6.73

Last edited by braveslice; Sat Mar 22, 2014 at 01:06 PM..
 
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Sun Mar 23, 2014, 11:45 AM
(#9)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveslice View Post
I don't get that cbet advise. I just learned not to cbet my made but weakish hand and now I should learn to bet it sometimes Surprisingly hard given that you only have 2 choices there
Learning a concept is one thing, adapting it to different scenarios and conditions is another
Even when it's HU you can argue to cbet QQ for value on Kxx against opponents that will give action with PPs below TP; it's just situational and does not apply in vacuum I think.
 

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