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2.20 freezout late phase

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2.20 freezout late phase - Fri Mar 28, 2014, 04:31 PM
(#1)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
should have i called preflop?
i had pretty wild image though villain1 didnt do a lot of strong play like dis with just AJ ... maybe with AK only if i remember...


could i get moar value from dis hand? i had wild image and i guess he was kindof aggresive with 3bets preflop or maybe it was other table... dont remember
 
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Fri Mar 28, 2014, 05:22 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
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Hi NaturoSasuki!

Please in the future limit each post to one hand, so that the discussions can stay on topic.

In tournament play, chip preservation is just as important as gaining chips, so I need to be much tighter with my calls.

In the first hand, I get a shove and a re-shove in front of me. With KQ, I can't even call the first shove, let alone the second, so this is an easy muck. To call a re-shove here, I can only do this with QQ+, anything less is too weak.
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The same thing with the second hand. If it folded to me, then I could open KQs here, but it's not strong enough to call a raise with and due to this I need to muck it preflop.

If I did see the flop (which I would not) when I hit top pair with a flush draw, I get a bet of 11k. I need to make a standard raise here to 3X their bet. I do not want to overbet shove. In a tourney, the only time I want to shove is if my standard bet pot-commits me.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

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Fri Mar 28, 2014, 08:02 PM
(#3)
herbalerv's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 217
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First hand, the original raiser has under 4BBs so would be calling that shove with KQ, but of course mucking to the second shove as you did.

Second hand I like a 3 bet actually to define villains range. 2.3x his sizing or so. As played you don't need to shove this flop, a call is fine as your hand is so huge you don't want to chase action away. Alternatively a smallish raise is also fine as if the villain does call there aren't many bad turn cards for your hand. Plus his c-bet size is so small, I like a raise to like 30k.
 
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Fri Mar 28, 2014, 08:03 PM
(#4)
herbalerv's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 217
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Suggesting OP only call the two shoves in the first hand with QQ+ is absolutely absurd. 99+ , AQo+ at the very minimum.
 
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Fri Mar 28, 2014, 08:30 PM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herbalerv View Post
Suggesting OP only call the two shoves in the first hand with QQ+ is absolutely absurd. 99+ , AQo+ at the very minimum.
I'd call with TT+, AK+ (maybe AQs) if it was just the 2nd player to shove. with another player involved, I need to tighten that range.

John (JWK24)


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Fri Mar 28, 2014, 09:05 PM
(#6)
herbalerv's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 217
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but the first shover has under 5 BBs which actually widens the second shovers range due to his juicy pot odds versus the first villains very wide range.
 
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Sat Mar 29, 2014, 12:04 AM
(#7)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
u definitely both right that i should raise KQs to 30 000 only lulz missed value and wanted to get it in against nut-FD and given my squeezy/loose image, i thought they would call me here even with worse hand... cuz i did even a few of postflop squeezes 3way w/ T high etc


but i still would like to call that KQo shove preflop... it wasnt that much i guess and i needed to play something... after that i kindof turn into some tight retard and didnt win anything... and i kindof want to play either for final table or for nothing...

won only like 21$ finishing 48. from 6000

Last edited by NaturoSasuki; Sat Mar 29, 2014 at 12:09 AM..
 
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Sat Mar 29, 2014, 12:17 AM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
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Playing for FT is the right way to look at it, but what I want to do.. is to be the first one into the pot and not the one calling someone else's bet. By being first in, then I can widen my range up.
I can raise/shove lighter if first in, but need to call tighter.

John (JWK24)


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Sat Mar 29, 2014, 01:15 AM
(#9)
Marc Rae's Avatar
Since: Aug 2013
Posts: 505
Interesting discussions.

first hand. because we are getting to that stage where decisions matter.. you have a nice 51BB stack. If you call and lose you're down to 31BB. I think to call off lighter than usual definitely needs reads and is very villain dependent. As a general rule, and avoiding using a standard range of hands, I'd want to be calling off tighter than 2nd villains jam range in this spot here. If I don't know it, then it's a fold.
But just as important is factoring in the question... what could I do with a 51BB now at this table, if I fold, than if I called and lost (40% of my stack) and end up with a 31BB stack? Losing 40% of your stack is ALOT, not a little. Usually when this deep, you're playing a decent number of hands vs villains at the same table and have plenty of time to keep exploiting them... you can afford to do this with 51BB. If you had called and won, what difference could you do at the table with 80BB, that you couldn't do with 50BB? Not much, compared to what you couldn't do if you ended up with 30BB.
Obv, if you called you would have won, but that's being results orientated.

2nd hand. I'm inclined to 3bet vs flat also. Again this depends the OPR and villains behind yet to act.
The jam generally don't need to do, and you can raise or call here. What I'd be thinking about also is that, I'd want to some of the time choose a line that I'd be doing if I didn't hit TP as well, not necessarily always when I hit the flop.
 
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Sat Mar 29, 2014, 03:31 AM
(#10)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Rae View Post
Interesting discussions.

first hand. because we are getting to that stage where decisions matter.. you have a nice 51BB stack. If you call and lose you're down to 31BB. I think to call off lighter than usual definitely needs reads and is very villain dependent. As a general rule, and avoiding using a standard range of hands, I'd want to be calling off tighter than 2nd villains jam range in this spot here. If I don't know it, then it's a fold.
But just as important is factoring in the question... what could I do with a 51BB now at this table, if I fold, than if I called and lost (40% of my stack) and end up with a 31BB stack? Losing 40% of your stack is ALOT, not a little. Usually when this deep, you're playing a decent number of hands vs villains at the same table and have plenty of time to keep exploiting them... you can afford to do this with 51BB. If you had called and won, what difference could you do at the table with 80BB, that you couldn't do with 50BB? Not much, compared to what you couldn't do if you ended up with 30BB.
Obv, if you called you would have won, but that's being results orientated.

2nd hand. I'm inclined to 3bet vs flat also. Again this depends the OPR and villains behind yet to act.
The jam generally don't need to do, and you can raise or call here. What I'd be thinking about also is that, I'd want to some of the time choose a line that I'd be doing if I didn't hit TP as well, not necessarily always when I hit the flop.
im cash, not tourney player... so tell me wut could i do with 30BB / 50BB /80BB ... wuts difference..
 
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Sun Apr 06, 2014, 11:40 PM
(#11)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
In Hand 2, I don't think 3-betting pre is a great idea. You guys who want to make it 20-22K I presume... if you do this you will have to call off to virtually every stack behind you except maybe P5 if they shove, and always be getting it in bad. You will have to fold to a 4b from P1 as well, with a hand that has some decent value in position vs. his probable open range, but is not good enough to continue vs. his 4b range. We have no read that makes sense, but still I don't favor 3-betting him off the hands we dominate, and isolating ourselves against the stronger portions of his range, while at the same time exposing ourselves to 4 shorter stacks behind.

I think this is a flat or fold personally. If P1 is a nit, just fold. If he's wider, then I think we can profitably flat on our stack size. If the players behind are aggressive squeezers then just fold. If not, then flat. That's my take on it anyway.


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