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10nl zoom 6m - thin value on the river with JJ on a Q-high board

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10nl zoom 6m - thin value on the river with JJ on a Q-high board - Wed Apr 02, 2014, 09:40 PM
(#1)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Hi everybody


A bit of background: so I've been in a downswing for a while, where I was making a lot of strong hands that either weren't getting paid off, or were getting beat by stronger. The latter was great practice for bet-folding.

On the other hand, when my hand wasn't that strong and I tried to make big bets to get people to fold, I was constantly feeling a bit surprised by how wide many people were willing to call?


Is my river bet too small here? Wasn't really worried about the Q or a set, even though casual players can sometimes take unusual lines. Guess I was more worried about how weak the villain might be, and how 'scary' a scare card the Q might be? Guess I put the villain on any sort of pair up to 9x.

Villain's HUD stats:






Will be interesting to hear how big people would make their river bet in this type of situation, since there's no right or wrong Usually I'd make mine larger ... maybe around $3.75? Guess I sized my bet a lot smaller here because I really wanted to get a call, after being in a downswing for so long ... hoping to win the pot of course! lol

Thanks for the help!


PS Oh, about the weird check-raise on the flop ... apparently I fell asleep at the wheel and forgot I was the pre-flop re-raiser - that line was a mistake!
 
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Wed Apr 02, 2014, 10:33 PM
(#2)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
Yeah x/raising here is pretty bad. If you do decide to check I think you should x/c (not x/minraise :S )

I'd rather just shove river.
 
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Wed Apr 02, 2014, 11:05 PM
(#3)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Should have picked another hand to post lol

Wasn't expecting anybody to suggest shoving the whole thing, but for the same reason I wasn't too worried about the villain having a Q, maybe they shouldn't have had reason to be too worried about me having one either? Really interesting suggestion birdaay - thanks for stopping by!!
 
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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 01:17 AM
(#4)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi Sam,

That cat looks serious without a hat.


On this hand it's a bit of a problem. I like your pre flop raise sizing - the btn may steal wide, then add the sb speculation over call.

It's gets awkward when the btn donks into you, the aggressor, then we add this sticky sb over call?


Here is the problem. I want to bet bigger than you did say $4.95 but then I'm committed and maybe beat vs 2 opponents. Shove all-in is basically the same. So now I'm over calling or folding and hate those options.

Lets see what the HA guys say.


Ooops missed the flop check - btn leads

Last edited by ForrestFive; Thu Apr 03, 2014 at 02:44 AM.. Reason: donk bet was wrong
 
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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 02:00 AM
(#5)
NaturoSasuki's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 348
preflop u could raise even like 1:30... if u gonna checkraise flop then i dont mind but checkraise it to allin with dis stackz , totally u getting urself in trouble as u will hate to see Q K A on turn and u did.... so i prefer checkcall his relative small allin(he 3-4$ and potz iz 10$) letting some A5 missed to steal pot but no trying to get value from 9...
<---- siriuz cat is watching u!
 
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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 06:20 AM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,362
The flop action doesn't make much sense to me. I think it's better to c-bet-(fold) or check-call every street.

What is the purpose of the flop check-raise? Nothing better than JJ folds, and few worse hands call, so you're at risk of value-owning yourself.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 07:17 AM
(#7)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
I agree with Arty and birdaay.
Although you can be confident about extracting value on river, I think you can assume that either villain has a hand given that he could call button bet and your checkraise on the flop or he likes to call with whatever pair he has. In which case max value here. A shove is not a big bet. The smaller bet might look more valuey too, would you really bluff 1/3 pot?
 
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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 08:05 AM
(#8)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Hey, everybody

Thanks a ton for stopping by!! Have to go, but will read over everyone's thoughts at lunch - lots of interesting ideas, so I'm really glad to have posted the hand
 
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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 08:51 AM
(#9)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForrestFive View Post

That cat looks serious without a hat.


Here is the problem. I want to bet bigger than you did say $4.95 but then I'm committed and maybe beat vs 2 opponents. Shove all-in is basically the same. So now I'm over calling or folding and hate those options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaturoSasuki View Post
totally u getting urself in trouble as u will hate to see Q K A on turn and u did.... so i prefer checkcall his relative small allin(he 3-4$ and potz iz 10$) letting some A5 missed to steal pot but no trying to get value from 9...

<---- siriuz cat is watching u!


I really like how your comments both capture the dilemma of the flop, after I screwed up and forgot to c-bet You make great points about how the check-raise was all sorts of awkward (spewy ). But then also pointed out how giving the villains a chance to see the turn might not be great either.

Arty, since this was a multi-way pot, thought the villains could have as many as 12 outs between the two of them, which would have only given me 50% pot odds. If I could get one of them to fold, then my equity would rise to 75%, so it was for protection with what possibly the best hand at the time? Hopefully? (Button bet 1/3 pot in position, and the SB called, called, called, but didn't raise, at every opportunity there was to act).
 
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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 08:56 AM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Profess Awe View Post
I agree with Arty and birdaay.
I think you can assume that either villain has a hand given that he could call button bet and your checkraise on the flop or he likes to call with whatever pair he has.
That's a great point profess - that even if the villain wasn't that strong, that might not stop him from calling a shove nevertheless

Ya, I agree with you and Arty and birdaay now too - I think shoving was likely the best move on the river
 
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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 09:52 AM
(#11)
birdayy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,179
I don't know if it's best. I just think that if you decide to bet it has to be a shove.
 
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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 12:12 PM
(#12)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
This hand was played very strangely. V2 obviously paid you off with 9x or A9 to be exact. I actually don't think shoving OTR is going to accomplish anything. Stack wise... yes a shove makes sense but I don't think 9x is going to call a shove.

River extraction good. The way the hand was played, bad... lol

Thanks!
dirt
 
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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 01:02 PM
(#13)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirt eh View Post
This hand was played very strangely.

The way the hand was played, bad... lol

Thanks!
dirt
lol!! I forgot to bet the flop - that was a mistake


Quote:
Originally Posted by dirt eh View Post
V2 obviously paid you off with 9x or A9 to be exact. I actually don't think shoving OTR is going to accomplish anything. Stack wise... yes a shove makes sense but I don't think 9x is going to call a shove.
It's really interesting to hear you say that, since you're the only one who plays the same pool


Think that's why my river bet wound up being especially small - it wasn't so much because it seemed important to not bet more than like 1/4-1/5 the pot, it was more because I didn't think even a casual player would invest more than like 2/3 net of their stack with like a pair of 9's on a Q-high board, after I'd 3-bet pre-flop, and re-raised post-flop into two people both times?

Like, guess if I was trying to represent a hand on the river, I wanted it to look more like 98s than AA or QQ?


On the other hand, maybe the bet sizing here then starts going into that realm of like, if you bet three times as large, you only need to be called 1/3 the time. So like ... maybe this is still one of those spots where it was better to shove, even if it was only likely to be called 1/3 the time?

Think I could have gotten away with $3.75 and still have been called by a lot of 9x. Guess I've just gotten a bit ... desperate (lol) after not making a lot of best hands in a while - hopefully I'll get used to making hands again soon


Fun to have the chance to discuss a hand with you DE - see you in the pool sometimes
 
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Fri Apr 04, 2014, 01:31 AM
(#14)
PSO-xflixx's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,119
(Live Trainer)
Hey Sam,

preflop is good, I would probably add a BB for being OOP and facing two people.

Flop play you already adressed, betting seems far superior here as you can get value from hands that wouldn't always bet themselves multiway and you don't give out freecards to two players.

As played I'd just shove turn and look for value from bluffcatchers. The Q should not have improved villain's calling range OTF too much and if you're beat here you probably were already OTF. Checking back gives out another potential freecard to our opponentn and lets us step in the dark if he bets river or whether we can still get value there.


Live Trainer



 
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Fri Apr 04, 2014, 08:05 AM
(#15)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
I've had recreationals call three streets with a pair less than TP a surprising amount of time, so that might have worked here

Villain was actually stronger than the passivity would have indicated, and had TT so probably this was one of those times where a shove on either the river or the turn was more likely to be called.




Really glad I posted the hand - got to hear a lot if different ideas that I'd never considered, so ... while I may have lost value with this hand, I gained a lot of great new ideas with it by submitting it to HA. Thanks so much for help everybody!!
 
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Tue Apr 29, 2014, 12:48 PM
(#16)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
End-of-Month Update


At the end of the month, I run my LeakBuster program to get recommendations for improvement on my hands for the month - and look what popped up ... this hand! LeakBuster also thought my river bet was lame lol, so guess it's unanimous




 

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