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5NL 6-max Zoom - Bad call with KK

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5NL 6-max Zoom - Bad call with KK - Thu Apr 03, 2014, 11:53 AM
(#1)
Fadyen's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,917
Unknown villain.



Really wanted to fold the Kings on the river, couldn't see what I was beating but ended up talking myself into a call. Should I have taken a different line or was there some way to avoid getting into this spot in the first place? Or was my line OK and I should have just listened to my gut?



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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 12:03 PM
(#2)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
I few things... You could go for a little larger 3B sizing preflop because you're going to be OOP for the entire hand and larger sizing OTF. As played I like your line until the river.

LINE CHANGE: BC,X,BF
OTR: I would have taken a BET/FOLD line. Bet about $1.50-1.75 in order to get called by TT-JJ and obviously we fold to a raise.

Next thing is sizing:
PF: could opt to 3B as large as 0.55 but 0.45 is fine.
OTF: I would have bet a tiny bit larger closer to 75% of the pot.

Having said all of that, yes the XC OTR was bad... lol

Thanks!
dirt
 
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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 01:11 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Hey Fadyen


Was just here in HA checking out all the great advice people have left under my hand, and wanted to stop in and say that it's great to see you here too - and also add that at least dirt eh didn't say you played bad, so ... looks like things are going okay for ya


lol

Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Apr 03, 2014 at 01:14 PM..
 
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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 05:10 PM
(#4)
Fadyen's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,917
I agree I could have be larger pre, especially vs UTG as that range should be on the stronger side and able to call larger bets. But I don't often bet more the 60% OTF in 3-bet pots as I feel it scares off too many of the more marginal hands then will stick around for one bet. Could be wrong about that though.



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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 08:01 PM
(#5)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
I agree with the 60% bet in a 3B pot OTF. Yes we can go smaller than 75%. I also like to play small ball after the flop... however on this board and the fact that he's flatting UTG vs a 3b from the BB... He's going to show up with TT+, AJs+, and maybe JTs+ something like that. I'm really worried when he raises us OTF. His raise OTF is either TT-AA, NFD, Qx.

So I sort of like betting a bit larger to eliminate all the doubt in my mind that he's just raising us here because he feels like it with air... and I think this is maybe where you decided that KK was good here OTR.

OTT: the Q looks like it could be ok for us because it's less likely that he has a set of queens but it's actually a horrible card. We didn't want to see a Q or an A OTT.

OTR: 9-2 are all "blanks" minus the clubs... so the 8 of spades is actually good for us. This is why I like a bet/fold OTR. (OTR I would bet/fold on any 9-2 non club, bet/call any Q any K and XF any T,J,A)

I would never XC in this spot.
 
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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 10:16 PM
(#6)
FireMedic815's Avatar
Since: May 2012
Posts: 2,079
I think your decision really comes on the flop, when he 2 bets I might have just shipped it here, I think he may be doing it with some drawing hands or like he had,

I guess it all depends on what you are giving him, I watched the whole hand so my opinion may be tainted.

good to see you fadyen I hope all is well.
 
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Thu Apr 03, 2014, 10:55 PM
(#7)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fadyen View Post
Really wanted to fold the Kings on the river, couldn't see what I was beating but ended up talking myself into a call.
There was a reason I dedicated my 2013 Time Vault thread to learning how to fold - I know that feeling all too well

Am sure there's a fair number of others who do as well though, especially in spots like this ... with a 3-bet pot oop, versus an unknown, etc. And then the villain made that unexpected mini-reraise on the flop. Hard to know how tight or wide he's calling your 3-bet, and with what sort of hand he's re-raising with on the flop - like, would he do that with just QQ and AcKc? But then the turn brought another Q, which only left one combo of QQ ... but then his river bet was rather large.

So his line was a bit confusing.

Think over time I only stopped calling on rivers like this one, because I developed quite a collection of river calls And it turns out villains were rarely bluffing the river with bets this size - like it was far more common for unknowns to call 3-bets with like 22, and 33, than it was for them to bluff rivers that size with busted draws when they could have bluffed the turn and didn't?

Like ... guess there was enough uncertainty in river spots like this for me to see what I wanted to see? And it was only with more play that I was able to see through hand history review that the villain's most likely hand is like, AQ or whatever? Like I'm not sure that when I was at 5nl I'd have known that on the river ...


Fadyen, you play really well - think the ranging just takes more play-time, which'll come over time

Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Apr 03, 2014 at 10:58 PM..
 
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Fri Apr 04, 2014, 01:36 AM
(#8)
PSO-xflixx's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,119
(Live Trainer)
Hey Fadyen,

preflop I'd 3-bet a bit bigger OOP with a strong range vs a strong range (UTG vs BB).

Flop sizing seems fine as the texture isn't very drawy/connective with many hands. Against his raise I'd also call and re-evaluate OTT.

Given that he checks back turn it looks like he may have been bluffing OTF and either give up or slowplay (which in my experience happens a lot here with people making boats or trips).

I always find it hard to believe that people give up on their bluffs when they can actually represent a certain card on the turn so I guess I'd be inclined to check/fold river against any bigger bets after this turncheck.


Live Trainer



 
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Fri Apr 04, 2014, 09:56 AM
(#9)
Fadyen's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,917
Thanks everyone! I think I need to listen to my gut a little more as it seems to have a better idea of what's the right thing to do lol.



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