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Call or Fold

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Call or Fold - Sat Apr 05, 2014, 01:16 PM
(#1)
Michae2005's Avatar
Since: Sep 2013
Posts: 122
Hi all


Didn’t know what to do here. I only had 5 hands on the V so opted for the safe option. I have been having been finding myself in this situation a lot lately on the flop where I Cbet and someone come over the top.



Thanks
Michael
 
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Sun Apr 06, 2014, 06:07 AM
(#2)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I think I call the raise on the flop.

He can take this action with worse Aces and some flush/straight draws. He is unknown though so its going to be a difficult to play OOP.
 
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Sun Apr 06, 2014, 07:57 AM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
I think folding is fine. You have no blockers/backdoors and your kicker isn't great, so if you call you'd be hoping to see the Jd or Js on the turn (2 decent cards, whoop!), and even then you could be crushed by a set. I'd be happier about calling with a flush draw, and I think AK is a call too (especially with Kc), but AQ or worse with no club is a sensible fold.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Sun Apr 06, 2014, 09:35 AM
(#4)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi Michae2005,

A good question to ask here is: How does our hand look in villain's eyes?
We are the PFR and bet into two opponents on Ace high when we are first to act; Our hand looks exactly what it is Ax, or a FD. So when the villain raises us they will never raise with a worse Ax. I think they will have 2pair+ and FDs mostly here. Even FDs might just call because it's unlikely for us to fold after we take this action OTF. More importantly I don't see any good turns for us when the villain is likely to bet again. So I like to fold here to a raise without any solid read on our opponent.
 
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Sun Apr 06, 2014, 09:47 AM
(#5)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
So when the villain raises us they will never raise with a worse Ax.
I don't see how we can make such an absolute statement at 2NL.

They should never be raising a worse Ace but 2NL villains frequently make horrible plays that make little or no sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
We are the PFR and bet into two opponents on Ace high when we are first to act; Our hand looks exactly what it is Ax, or a FD.
He never thinks we have pocket pairs TT through KK and that he has just outflopped us?

I mean, I dont think the fold is at all a bad action, I just don't see how we can state so absolutely that a likely bad player is not raising a worse hand.

EDIT: Just to add, I think too often we give likely bad villains too much credit for their actions, but given there will be much better spots a fold is decent here.

Last edited by bhoylegend; Sun Apr 06, 2014 at 09:51 AM..
 
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Sun Apr 06, 2014, 09:53 AM
(#6)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
I don't see how we can make such an absolute statement at 2NL.

They should never be raising a worse Ace but 2NL villains frequently make horrible plays that make little or no sense.



He never thinks we have pocket pairs TT through KK and that he has just outflopped us?

I mean, I dont think the fold is at all a bad action, I just don't see how we can state so absolutely that a likely bad player is not raising a worse hand.
Bad players can either be passive and call down too light, or aggressive and raise with weak holdings. There is no information here for us to think they would raise with worse or not raise with worse that is true. But the fact that we are OOP with a hand that is unlikely to improve, do you want to call down and find out?
 
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Sun Apr 06, 2014, 10:18 AM
(#7)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
do you want to call down and find out?
I've said I am content with a fold, because there will be much better spots, I do think we tend to give bad players too much credit at time for making sensible plays though. Which is why I quibbled with the 'they will never raise with a worse Ax' when I am sure we have all seen that they can and do.

Its a small point.
 
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Wed Apr 09, 2014, 01:17 PM
(#8)
Michae2005's Avatar
Since: Sep 2013
Posts: 122
Thanks for the input guys very interesting points
 

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